Any hypermilers? And busting myths.

[Frank Tuesday]

Lets take this to absurd levels. You are currently driving your paid for Lamborghini Gallardo, which gets 10mpg under normal driving conditions. You want to buy a fuel efficient car because the gas cost is killing you. You get a new subcompact on lease for $200/month and get 40mpg.

You'd have to drive 762 miles per month to make the $200 difference up. Assuming you drive 10k a year, you would actually come out ahead.

Now, if you were willing to ride a scooter or small motorcycle around everywhere you might actually save some dough. Say your scooter gets 80mpg, and your payment is $75/month. You'd only have to go 245 miles/month on your scooter (instead of your Gallardo) to have it pay off.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Maybe some folk do it for reasons other than simple economics?

Dunno, just speculating there.

 

[Pilgrim]

Yes, and every available hybrid will do that. Some hybrids will do that (trucks and SUV's), most won't...but then, neither will most passenger cars.

If you toss the towing requirement:

Chevy Volt, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Ford Focus Hybrid, Toyota Camry hybrid, Ford Fusion hybrid, Lexus HS250H, Honda Civic Hybrid, BMW AH7, Ford Escape Hybrid, Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid, GMC Yukon Hybrid, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, Cadillac Escalade Hybrid, Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, Lexus RX 450h, etc, etc.

Your response is both helpful and challenging. I'll do more research later today.

Remember that I wrote that I need to do a 700 mile trip in one day, about 14 hours long. That means no stopping to charge an electrical system, so the vehicle must be capable of driving the entire trip on gas. Not a problem, provided the hybrid runs on gas - at which time the battery pack turns into nothing more than penalty weight which is unnecessary and reduces gas mileage.

Also, I currently get 22 MPG at 75-79 MPH in my Nissan Murano, and the larger SUV vehicles you cite don't do much better (if as well) operating on gas on the highway - and probably not as well at that speed. So by moving to one of them, I'd gain little or nothing in fuel economy. Sometimes it's really nice to drive these western interstates where you can cruise at decent speed.

And frankly, I'm not interested in driving any of the smaller vehicles - I need to use the Murano for too many things...like moving bass gear, and for the apple tree I'm pulling down this weekend and taking most of the wood home.

I don't see spending money to change to a hybrid vehicle given those circumstances.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Maybe some folk do it for reasons other than simple economics?

Dunno, just speculating there.

Absolutely, and I'm not arguing otherwise. I just think many people have unrealistic ideas about how much money they are going to save on gasoline.

Of course those people who buy a new, fuel-efficient car to reduce their carbon footprint are missing out on some other realities, such as the amount of energy required (and the resultant carbon emissions) to extract and convert the raw materials in the ground into a new car in their driveway. You have to make up a significant carbon deficit to break even there.

 

[Let It Fall]

This. US gallons are used nowhere else in the world. Also, my last tank of gas was 42.2mpg, you can't say that I don't get that. I track all my mileage, where I got the gas from, and cost per km. I find the station that I fill up at has the biggest impact on my mileage. I am only going to get 36ish on my current tank, all because of the place that I filled up at.

Pilgrim, I would be a poor engineer if I didn't have impeccable logic.

But while the rest of the world standard measurement is liters per 100km why are you bringing imperial gallons into a subject where we're obviously discussing standard American mileage? We wouldn't have the confusion of the 30mpg f-150.

This means I get 72mpg in my 2012 jetta. Let's stick to one or the other.

 

[UncleFluffy]

Not a problem, provided the hybrid runs on gas - at which time the battery pack turns into nothing more than penalty weight which is unnecessary and reduces gas mileage.

Not quite. If you're doing city driving or stop-go freeway driving the regenerative braking kicks in to save some gas. Whether that offsets the extra weight of the battery pack I have no idea ...

 

[aborgman]

Remember that I wrote that I need to do a 700 mile trip in one day, about 14 hours long. That means no stopping to charge an electrical system, so the vehicle must be capable of driving the entire trip on gas. Not a problem, provided the hybrid runs on gas - at which time the battery pack turns into nothing more than penalty weight which is unnecessary and reduces gas mileage.

ALL hybrids run on gas (or some fuel other than electricity) in addition to electricity BY DEFINITION.

...and the battery pack doesn't just turn into dead weight - it still provides for things like regenerative braking.

Also, I currently get 22 MPG at 75-79 MPH in my Nissan Murano, and the larger SUV vehicles you cite don't do much better (if as well) operating on gas on the highway - and probably not as well at that speed. So by moving to one of them, I'd gain little or nothing in fuel economy.

Most of those larger SUV type vehicles I cited are significantly larger and more offroad capable than a Murano - which (like my Ford Freestyle) is really an oversized car.

The most comparable Hybrid SUV is one of the small ones - like a Ford Escape (which still has more cargo room than a Murano), or a Lexus RS450

The Murano:
Seats 4-5
3,500 towing capacity
~62 cu. ft. cargo space
18 city / 23 highway.

Ford Escape Hybrid:
Seats 4-5
3,500 towing capacity (with optional tow package)
~67 cu. ft. cargo space
34 city / 31 highway.

Lexus RX450H
Seats 4-5
3,500 towing capacity (with optional tow package)
~80 cu. ft. cargo space
32 city / 28 highway

I don't see spending money to change to a hybrid vehicle given those circumstances.

If you're comparing a new car to a used one, and looking for purely economic justifications given gas prices today(and your primary intention is highway driving) - it doesn't make sense.

If you care about pollution output in addition to fuel consumption, if you drive lots of city miles, if you're already looking to buy some NEW car anyway, if you like leading edge technology... then hybrids make more sense.

 

[Let It Fall]

As for the new vs old. New cars WILL be bought. All cars break down with age and mileage. Therefor I don't see buying a new hybrid any worse than buying a new truck because as I said cars WILL be bought

 

[Let It Fall]

My last truck was taking me a newer car note a month to maintain so I purchased newer. With the added conscience of reliability.

 

[iamlowsound]

But while the rest of the world standard measurement is liters per 100km why are you bringing imperial gallons into a subject where we're obviously discussing standard American mileage? We wouldn't have the confusion of the 30mpg f-150.

This means I get 72mpg in my 2012 jetta. Let's stick to one or the other.

Actually, the US is the only country that uses mpg in US gallons. It is very common to use mpg in Canada and we use the imperial gallon for the calculation. The UK still uses imperial measurements and so do some other countries.

Since we are a world wide forum, we might as well use the most common fuel consumption measurements, which is L/100km and mpg with imperial gallons. Additionally, we aren't "obviously" discussing US mileage, since half of us in the thread aren't from the US.

lowsound

 

[aborgman]

As for the new vs old. New cars WILL be bought.

Actually, not.

Generally folks who buy new cars, always buy new cars - and folks that buy used cars always buy used cars.

I'm on about the 10th car I've bought in 20 years - and not one has been close to new.

Therefor I don't see buying a new hybrid any worse than buying a new truck because as I said cars WILL be bought

The difference is generally availability. I only buy used cars. The used car market for non-hybrids is huge. The used car market for hybrids is tiny.

 

[Pilgrim]

Aborgman, you do great research! Good points. A hybrid is still not a good fit for me this year or in the near future, but hopefully in the foreseeable future. The longer I run the vehicle I own, the greater the price difference to move into a newer one, and I usually drive them to about 150K miles. At current rate I put miles on the Murano, that's about 6 more years...but I'm not sure I'll keep it that long.

 

[kanonfodr]

ALL hybrids run on gas (or some fuel other than electricity) in addition to electricity BY DEFINITION.

...and the battery pack doesn't just turn into dead weight - it still provides for things like regenerative braking.



Most of those larger SUV type vehicles I cited are significantly larger and more offroad capable than a Murano - which (like my Ford Freestyle) is really an oversized car.

The most comparable Hybrid SUV is one of the small ones - like a Ford Escape (which still has more cargo room than a Murano), or a Lexus RS450

The Murano:
Seats 4-5
3,500 towing capacity
~62 cu. ft. cargo space
18 city / 23 highway.

Ford Escape Hybrid:
Seats 4-5
3,500 towing capacity (with optional tow package)
~67 cu. ft. cargo space
34 city / 31 highway.

Lexus RX450H
Seats 4-5
3,500 towing capacity (with optional tow package)
~80 cu. ft. cargo space
32 city / 28 highway




If you're comparing a new car to a used one, and looking for purely economic justifications given gas prices today(and your primary intention is highway driving) - it doesn't make sense.

If you care about pollution output in addition to fuel consumption, if you drive lots of city miles, if you're already looking to buy some NEW car anyway, if you like leading edge technology... then hybrids make more sense.

First of all few people are going to off-road their new large SUV that they are paying beyond $30k for in any serious fashion so throw that out the window right there. That's a 5% issue. Second of all, buying any of those three new would not make economic sense for that individual. Heck, I can't justify a Honda Civic right now and my Jeep only gets 15 mpg average, but it's paid off. And some of us don't need that leading edge technology, I for one find it to get in my way .

Oh, and towing with any hybrid?? Especially that close to their tow ratings?? Fuggedabout doing it regularly.

As for the new vs old. New cars WILL be bought. All cars break down with age and mileage. Therefor I don't see buying a new hybrid any worse than buying a new truck because as I said cars WILL be bought

Right now the sweet spot is the 3-year-old low mileage vehicle: half the price of the new one, most of the features and power.

Actually, not.

Generally folks who buy new cars, always buy new cars - and folks that buy used cars always buy used cars.

I'm on about the 10th car I've bought in 20 years - and not one has been close to new.




The difference is generally availability. I only buy used cars. The used car market for non-hybrids is huge. The used car market for hybrids is tiny.

And the used market for hybrids is going to be tiny for a while until they figure out what to do with the battery systems in them. Currently the longest-lasting battery systems are only at about 10 years maximum life, I expect most will only see 6-7. Buying a 5 year-old hybrid to pay another few grand in a few years to replace the batteries or take a loss at sale?? No thank you.

Peace,
Greg

 

[Let It Fall]

Actually, not.

Generally folks who buy new cars, always buy new cars - and folks that buy used cars always buy used cars.

I'm on about the 10th car I've bought in 20 years - and not one has been close to new.

The difference is generally availability. I only buy used cars. The used car market for non-hybrids is huge. The used car market for hybrids is tiny.

If nobody bought new cars eventually we would run out of used cars. For every used car you bought.... Used it was once new. Think about it.

 

[Pilgrim]

It has seemed to me that the biggest resale challenge with a used hybrid will be the service life of the battery pack, given that replacement battery packs are likely to be pretty expensive... possibly even more than the value of the vehicle. That's something we'll have to see as the market develops and technology moves forward.

 

[Let It Fall]

Actually, the US is the only country that uses mpg in US gallons. It is very common to use mpg in Canada and we use the imperial gallon for the calculation. The UK still uses imperial measurements and so do some other countries.

Since we are a world wide forum, we might as well use the most common fuel consumption measurements, which is L/100km and mpg with imperial gallons. Additionally, we aren't "obviously" discussing US mileage, since half of us in the thread aren't from the US.

lowsound

I'm gonna stick with standard miles. I figure with all the confusion of an f-150 getting 32mpg where thinking real gallons. Not them fake ones.

From now on mention which gallon your referring to and I believe 1us gallon = 1.2 imperial.

I'd prefer a us mpg or uk l/100km though

 

[aborgman]

A hybrid is still not a good fit for me this year or in the near future, but hopefully in the foreseeable future. The longer I run the vehicle I own, the greater the price difference to move into a newer one, and I usually drive them to about 150K miles.

Yeah, not exactly in my economic wheelhouse at this point either.

...but I currently drive a 1996 Honda Accord, that I bought in 2008 with 80k miles on it. It's the first car I've ever bought that had LESS than 100,000 miles on it when I purchased it.

 

[aborgman]

First of all few people are going to off-road their new large SUV that they are paying beyond $30k for in any serious fashion so throw that out the window right there.

Well, I can tell you aren't from Michigan...

Second of all, buying any of those three new would not make economic sense for that individual.

Buying ANY new car generally doesn't make economic sense. Buying any luxury or sports car doesn't make economic sense.

Oh, and towing with any hybrid?? Especially that close to their tow ratings?? Fuggedabout doing it regularly.

Towing 3000lbs on a Nissan Murano with a 3,500lb tow rating is just as bad as towing 3000lbs on a hybrid with a 3,500lb tow rating - so I'd call that a wash.

And the used market for hybrids is going to be tiny for a while until they figure out what to do with the battery systems in them. Currently the longest-lasting battery systems are only at about 10 years maximum life, I expect most will only see 6-7. Buying a 5 year-old hybrid to pay another few grand in a few years to replace the batteries or take a loss at sale??

Battery lifespan on the Prius under normal use comes in around 180,000 miles... which is about how many miles the average non-hybrid car survives.

It's certainly a consideration - but less of an issue (given how new a technology we're talking about) than folks make it out to be.

 

[Pilgrim]

Buying ANY new car generally doesn't make economic sense. Buying any luxury or sports car doesn't make economic sense.

True, but I learned many years ago while selling cars - people don't drive the car they need, they drive the car they want.

Logic has little to do with it - people have emotional responses to vehicles. Even those who regard vehicles as appliances with wheels are making a statement by selecting bland econoboxes.

If people drove what they need, most of us would be driving the most practical car ever made - the Checker...but they went away!

 

[Jake Saint]

If nobody bought new cars eventually we would run out of used cars. For every used car you bought.... Used it was once new. Think about it.

Have you seen the used car market recently? It's ludicrously overpriced. a fourteen year old Civic should NOT be selling for 3-5K with over 100K miles on it. seriously.