Anyone else out there -Not- a Huge Jaco Fan??

[mike.b]

jaco, chili peppers and metallica are part of this "elite club" you speak of? haha, don't make me laugh. Comparing them to ppl like clapton and halen is laughable! what a crock of stinky dog ****!

and your comment sucks the big one.but hey thats only my opinion.cheers mhensley for proving my point.

 

[comfortstarr]

Mozart was the most accomplished and (arguably, besides Bach) accoladed musician in history. And this is after hundreds of years.

Wow... some serious cultural imperialism there. If you edit to say "...in the history of western-European classical traditions" I'll get on board.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Wow... some serious cultural imperialism there. If you edit to say "...in the history of western-European classical traditions" I'll get on board.

No thanks.

 

[SpectorBass308]

I like Jaco I'm not into jazz but I think he does a lot of good Blues Brothers style songs with some great chops and creativity. Check out his songs "Soul Intro/The Chicken" and "Come On, Come Over". I understand that alot of you just don't like the style of music he plays, I'm in the same boat with you on that one. But his originality is off the charts, thats something we may take for granted now days. He is definitely an inspiring player to me.

 

[JimK]

But isn't it possible to not "get" something on the first listen, then come back later and really connect with something? It can happen but it takes work.

Bingo.
IIRC, I touched on this earlier.
In '76, my Jazz drumming uncle was helping me get into Jazz...I could not stomach the Coltrane record he played for me. Every so often, I would try again...& again & again.
For me, it took reading a few biographies & Jazz history things...and more listening.
Maybe 1996, I became a huge Coltrane fan...his later period stuff is at the top of my list.

 

[shwashwa]

It's just as possible to never "get it", because it's still pretty darned boring.

I've opened up to a lot of music over the years of playing.

I've been fed it all from the Jaco camp since I started almost 9 years ago.

It still does absolutely zip.

For some, excitement is sitting alone in your room, working out a Jaco solo or whatever. Others, it's in front of 10,000 screaming people playing 3 chords and a minor.

I only argue this topic so heatedly because so many of the Jaco or elitist or what the crap ever fools w/ blinders on seem to think the latter is somehow "less", when in reality, and outside of bassdom, nobody really cares...

The fact of the matter is, there's a lot more arrogant, stuck up @-holes coming from his side about this topic. For people who preach "acceptance" for styles others don't particularly like, there's way, way too much condemnation and overall rudeness and ignorance of that same "acceptance" that isn't being practiced. Or even attempted.

Quit with the double standards, and maybe people will start to open up and/or listen.

It's very sad to see attitudes from "mature" or "seasoned" bassists with this outlook. It's so prevalent here it's beyond laughable. Mostly why I don't even get involved w/ these threads.

this particular jaco bashing thread is slightly different than most that pop up here on talkbass with astonishing regularity. this one, in the title, asks for your opinion on whether or not you like jaco or not, which is a perfectly legit question and people are going to come down on all sides of the fence on this one and that's cool. the types of threads that usually come up are ones that dont ask if you like him or not, but ones that say he sucks, or he's not as great as everyone says. this i dont think is a matter of opinion. i think its a matter of fact that he didnt suck and that he was a deeply gifted musician. whether or not you like it is another topic all together (again i cite my late coltrane example for similarities). the people who are rushing to jaco's defence here are probably used to defending the facts about the quality of his musicianship, not entirely realizing that this is an opinion thread. i say, whether or not you like him, he was great. if you dont agree, just try to sit with a metronome and play a cohesive solo on the changes to donna lee (or any other tune with chord changes) at over 200 bpm, and then tell me if it's easy to do or not. i'm not saying that you have to like playing bass solos, or that you have to like jazz or changes, but i do think you'd have to admit that it's not an easy thing to do and that anyone who can do it certianly does not suck (whether or not that style appeals to you or not). if you dont like it that's cool. i personally hate the sound fo slap bass. i think its boring and unmusical, but i'm not going to say that wooten or marcus suck, they just bore me, thats my opinion, but i know they worked hard to get where they are and they probably have many tools in the toolbox.

 

[JimK]

What it with this notion that you have to work at something like music to get it? Said it before, and I'll say it again - I think that sounds like elitist BS (and it has nothing to do with Jaco). I understand that not everyone is capable of playing/understanding the theory and details of jazz music, but give me break here. IMO, music should always come down to "I like what I HEAR".

At one time, we all liked "Twinlke, Twinkle Little Star"...& then we mostly outgrew it.
Liking only what we HEAR is often times determined by what we're exposed to...if 4/4 Rock n' Roll is the bulk of what you're used to, it may take some effort to appreciate other things.
I mentioned Coltrane...at one point in time, I found his outside/dissonant material to be noise. I did not like what I was hearing. My problem? I didn't know what I was hearing.

Music is something you judge for yourself by what you hear, not what you have studied or worked to hear.

People do study & do the work to hear 'better'. Listening is a skill. I don't know too many that liked Charles Ives right off the bat.

One last analogy. I like watching football, A LOT.

Still, you learned & read about the rules, right? Did you ever read about the history of football? Or read about the early pioneers of the NFL?
I like hockey...A LOT. Many of my friends hate it...A LOT. These guys were reared strictly on football & baseball...I suspect a few don't like hockey because it's something they don't know.

What you hear is what draws you to the music in the first place, not what you know about theory.

True...since your an analogy-based guy:
People get into arithmetic & then math...and then move onto higher stuff.
Few can start with Calculus...it was the early allure of addition/subtraction that sucked them into something bigger.

 

[rockstarbassist]

IMHO, there's way too many cats copping Jaco's stuff for him to be that otherworldly. And not just his "vibe", but his actual music. Lots of people can do what he did, and sound very similar if not a dead copy.

Again, personal taste, but from my side of the coin, try bashing out speed metal at 220bpm with 2-3 guitars and double kicks for hours a night. I haven't played thrash in a while, but getting every note, exactly right on time ain't any easier than your jazz standard...
It's all what excites you as to what you practice. I've been working on getting my fingerstyle speed up to just about anything that can be done with a pick. It's what I use, it's what I need.

 

[D.Don]

To get a nice introduction to the jaco history, watch the "modern electric bass" clips on youtube ...

After that some of the puzzle pieces will fall in the right places.

Jazz music, and in particular the more experimental and high flying jazz is nothing you will understand from scratch. One of my best friends father was a legend on bass clarinet, playing atonal "classical" music and he was a well respected "famous" genius, but I can't listen to it for 5 seconds without getting stressed and feeling crazy ... This doesn't make him suck, it tells that I am inexperienced in the atonal music world and know nothing about it, yet lots of peeps really love that stuff, while I can't for anything in the world tell if he was a genius or just a crazy man when he played/composed ...

D.Don

 

[JimK]

I ask people who have been on the music scene, pro players for 20+ years in rock, pop, country, etc. who have never even heard of the guy. Who are more famous/accomplished than you OR me.

What? How many veteran professional musicians do you know that are that ignorant? This can't be common.

I agree.
20+ years ago = 1986 or so...Jaco died about that time...his death even made our local paper's A-Section.
I still recall the headline: "Jazz Pioneer Pastorious Dead".
I had to do a double take...I know there was a lull in his music activity; I didn't realize everything else had gone to Hell for him.

Anyway, hard to believe anyone from that era not being familar with him.

The pro players from that era that I once knew-
Oteil, Keith Horne, Glenn Snow, etc are totally aware of Jaco...and you can hear it.

 

[rockstarbassist]

At one time, we all liked "Twinlke, Twinkle Little Star"...& then we mostly outgrew it.
Liking only what we HEAR is often times determined by what we're exposed to...if 4/4 Rock n' Roll is the bulk of what you're used to, it may take some effort to appreciate other things.
I mentioned Coltrane...at one point in time, I found his outside/dissonant material to be noise. I did not like what I was hearing. My problem? I didn't know what I was hearing.


People do study & do the work to hear 'better'. Listening is a skill. I don't know too many that liked Charles Ives right off the bat.


Still, you learned & read about the rules, right? Did you ever read about the history of football? Or read about the early pioneers of the NFL?
I like hockey...A LOT. Many of my friends hate it...A LOT. These guys were reared strictly on football & baseball...I suspect a few don't like hockey because it's something they don't know.


True...since your an analogy-based guy:
People get into arithmetic & then math...and then move onto higher stuff.
Few can start with Calculus...it was the early allure of addition/subtraction that sucked them into something bigger.

Again, 99% of your post just backs up what most of us have been saying all along-
"...it may takes some time to appreciate some other things... I didn't know what I was hearing...", implying we don't know what we're hearing?
Seriously, unless you're a brand-new green rookie on the EBG, you know what's going on with Jaco when he plays. It's not like it's magic or a secret.

Sh!t man, I'm about to throw you a Cannibal Corpse, Meshuggah, and old school Fear Factory mix CD, and when you don't like it, well, that's obviously because you "just don't know what you're hearing"...

This just inspires me to tune lower, play louder, and get a bigger rig to melt some more faces off the jazz weenies...

 

[rarbass]

IMHO, there's way too many cats copping Jaco's stuff for him to be that otherworldly. And not just his "vibe", but his actual music. Lots of people can do what he did, and sound very similar if not a dead copy.

Again, personal taste, but from my side of the coin, try bashing out speed metal at 220bpm with 2-3 guitars and double kicks for hours a night. I haven't played thrash in a while, but getting every note, exactly right on time ain't any easier than your jazz standard...
It's all what excites you as to what you practice. I've been working on getting my fingerstyle speed up to just about anything that can be done with a pick. It's what I use, it's what I need.

What are you trying to prove? That your thrash metal speed makes you better than Jaco?

Nobody did what Jaco did before he did it! Just because a bunch of people can copy what Jaco did doesn't mean it wasn't amazing! The very fact that everyone is doing what Jaco did only proves he's been a HUGE influence on all of those people! It's those players' fault that they can't come up with their own style! The fact that people can be a "dead copy" of Jaco only shows their own lack of originality.
Jaco started what he did. Everyone who did it after him is only doing it because they're not original enough to come up with their own style. Why would anyone want to be a "dead copy" of Jaco? They're not influencing anyone because Jaco already has!
You've proven nothing with your post. Except perhaps that Jaco is a larger influence than even Les Claypool, because I don't see anyone doing what he's doing.

Note: Again, I'm not bashing Les Claypool, even though it sounds like it.
Les Claypool is extremely original, as was Jaco. They both created their own style. Saying that Jaco was more influential than Les Claypool is:
1. True.
2. Not an insult to Claypool, because Jaco was one of the hugest influences on bass, especially in his time.

 

[JimK]

IMHO, there's way too many cats copping Jaco's stuff for him to be that otherworldly. And not just his "vibe", but his actual music. Lots of people can do what he did, and sound very similar if not a dead copy.

There are a couple of Jaco Big Band tribute cds out there...I have both.
The "guest" bassists on these discs read like a Who-Who's of bass-dom.
On the 1st disc, there is one Jaco track (Herbie Hancock's "Wiggle Waggle")...compare that to the other tracks. While the guests do an incredible job...there is a difference.

Lots can play the notes, no doubt...especially nowadaze because someone has really put some time in with all the Jaco Songbooks/transcriptions out there.
As far as his tunes? I'm not hearing a bunch of "Crisis", "Three Views", "Opus Pocus", or "Punk Jazz" out there.

 

[JimK]

Sh!t man, I'm about to throw you a Cannibal Corpse, Meshuggah, and old school Fear Factory mix CD, and when you don't like it, well, that's obviously because you "just don't know what you're hearing"...

Been there, done that.

FWIW, one of my 'new finds' is The 13th Floor Elevators...a band from the '60s that I missed out when I was a kid.
"Jazz weeny"?
...ya can't get anymore anti-technical than the Elevators.

So, again, the point is about heart/soul & not technique/amount of notes.
Too many of you (yes, y-o-u) are stuck in the "Too many notes = complexity = elitist music" camp. If I don't get 'it'...then it's elitist & I don't want to get 'it'.
Just for S's & G's...how do you feel reading music?

Lastly-
I think the true believers here (Bruce, Jerry, Pedro, et al) are right on-point.

 

[MHensleyJr]

There are a couple of Jaco Big Band tribute cds out there...I have both.
The "guest" bassists on these discs read like a Who-Who's of bass-dom.
On the 1st disc, there is one Jaco track (Herbie Hancock's "Wiggle Waggle")...compare that to the other tracks. While the guests do an incredible job...there is a difference.

Lots can play the notes, no doubt...especially nowadaze because someone has really put some time in with all the Jaco Songbooks/transcriptions out there.
As far as his tunes? I'm not hearing a bunch of "Crisis", "Three Views", "Opus Pocus", or "Punk Jazz" out there.

And your point is?

No matter what you or anyone else says, I still think Jaco is a highly overrated, ugly dressing, mediocre bass player.

 

[D.Don]

And your point is?

No matter what you or anyone else says, I still think Jaco is a highly overrated, ugly dressing, mediocre bass player.

.. and soon enough someone will suggest that Dan Brown is given the nobel prize in literature ...

D.Don

 

[rockstarbassist]

What are you trying to prove? That your thrash metal speed makes you better than Jaco?

Nobody did what Jaco did before he did it! Just because a bunch of people can copy what Jaco did doesn't mean it wasn't amazing! The very fact that everyone is doing what Jaco did only proves he's been a HUGE influence on all of those people! It's those players' fault that they can't come up with their own style! The fact that people can be a "dead copy" of Jaco only shows their own lack of originality.
Jaco started what he did. Everyone who did it after him is only doing it because they're not original enough to come up with their own style. Why would anyone want to be a "dead copy" of Jaco? They're not influencing anyone because Jaco already has!
You've proven nothing with your post. Except perhaps that Jaco is a larger influence than even Les Claypool, because I don't see anyone doing what he's doing.

Note: Again, I'm not bashing Les Claypool, even though it sounds like it.
Les Claypool is extremely original, as was Jaco. They both created their own style. Saying that Jaco was more influential than Les Claypool is:
1. True.
2. Not an insult to Claypool, because Jaco was one of the hugest influences on bass, especially in his time.

Again- you jazz weenies can all go sit around and play hero worship to him. You're the only ones who do. You just need to face it.

Saying that Jaco was more influential than Les, today:

1. Wrong, by a long shot for people who haven't already been in the biz for 15-30 years (Flea, with Claypool IMO are tied for anyone picking up a bass since 1990)
2. Not an insult to Jaco, because he played a style of music that most of us retards "just don't get", and therefore could care less about.

So, you're saying what Jaco played is more difficult a style than what a Claypool or Clarke does, because more people cop it?? Or not as many people can express music in the way Les or Stanley do?

Ok. I get it then.

And I didn't say thrash or hardcore is easier, or harder, or anything-
I'm simply saying that I keep hearing this BS "oh well look at how technical he was, blah blah blah" on and on and on, and it's just a wasted and useless argument.
As I posted before, if technicality = good, Dream Theater and Planet X would be mobbed by 18 year old girls off the street corners. In fact, usually the more technical something is, the less likely it has a wide appeal.

Outside the bass community, Jaco isn't even in the same league, paragraph or sport as a Lee, Harris, Claypool and especially Flea.

 

[rockstarbassist]

There are a couple of Jaco Big Band tribute cds out there...I have both.
The "guest" bassists on these discs read like a Who-Who's of bass-dom.
On the 1st disc, there is one Jaco track (Herbie Hancock's "Wiggle Waggle")...compare that to the other tracks. While the guests do an incredible job...there is a difference.

Lots can play the notes, no doubt...especially nowadaze because someone has really put some time in with all the Jaco Songbooks/transcriptions out there.
As far as his tunes? I'm not hearing a bunch of "Crisis", "Three Views", "Opus Pocus", or "Punk Jazz" out there.

And this proves, means, argues what? Some people are too lazy to learn the "harder" stuff??



You're right- I don't think I've heard those tunes anywhere outside of his band, ever!

 

[MHensleyJr]

Outside the bass community, Jaco isn't even in the same league, paragraph or sport as a Lee, Harris, Claypool and especially Flea.

+1000! Well said rockstarbassist, couldn't have said it bettter myself!!!

 

[mike.b]

And your point is?

No matter what you or anyone else says, I still think Jaco is a highly overrated, ugly dressing, mediocre bass player.

+100000000000000000000