Anyone still prefer Class A/B amps over Class D?

[agedhorse]

Have you ever felt the top of your amp running off of an excessively long (or thin) extension cord? Same diff. And while the spec may be spec'd the accountants/purchasers are likely to get the worst cable that will turn the amp on - same as the "guitar cables" that come in your case they DO work but they're of such low grade that they only work at an acceptable level for a very short time - in the case of an instrument cable, it adds noise or degrades your sound, in the case of a power cord, it adds resistance which makes the amp run hotter because the amp and cord are a system the same way the amp and bass are a system.
Again - I said you'd never hear it - but your amp will not be happy - also note I talked about over time - it may meet spec off the shelf - but the cheap ones break down more quickly meaning they DON'T meet spec after not so many gigs.

Not at all the same thing, the DISTANCE is so short that it doesn't matter one bit (provided it is adequate).

A long, thin extension cord will NOT make an amp run hotter (and in fact will make most amps run COOLER). What an excessively thin AND LONG extension cord will do is reduce the power of most amps because available AC voltage becomes insufficient to deliver rated power. Your amp won't care, it won't be less happy, and in the case of a well designed amp will enter protection mode under a serious low voltage condition.

The less expensive OEM cables must meet the same safety testing as the expensive ones (in fact many of the boutique power cables aren't even tested and many won't pass the tests anyway) which include flexing and ageing tests for reliability. Accountants/purchasing agents can not buy a cable that does not pass the agency testing, and even if they were able to, it would be caught in a safety agency factory inspection which would result in a very expensive and disrupting situation.

I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is horribly incorrect/inaccurate.

 

[agedhorse]

You are confusing the gauge of the wire with the quality of the wire.

He's confusing more than that.

 

[agedhorse]

Perhaps the tube preamp designs such as my G-B Shuttle 6.2 are not adequate for the ears of others, but I cheerfully crank up the gain on my preamp to near maximum, and the resulting sound is plenty warm and period-appropriate to my ear. I play blues and classic rock, and to my ears the tube OD sound provided by pushing the Shuttle preamp gain is very pleasing.

You and many thousands of other players apparently

 

[MultiScaleMale]

The $200 ESP power cord will crack your outlet face because it's extra heavy and not flexible.

 

[DigitalMan]

No, I'm not. Guage is size and affects resistance and capacitance. Quality is a mixture of features that will tend to include guage but will also include the type of braid and flexability - which will affect long term functionality.
Also... note I did start my post by saying that anyone who buys into "high-end" power cords is an idiot. I also believe that a $25 cord (also remember I'm in Canada, so we pay more for everything) is a rip off, but the cheap one's are trash. Or become it very quickly

I mistook your statements about thin cables and adding resistance to mean thin cables and adding resistance.

Substandard power cables that don't perform to spec would be a huge liability for any manufacturer. It doesn't make sense to go that route when anyone can buy a very well made and reliable power cable for a few dollars. Maybe not a few Canadian dollars.....

 

[danosix]

Not at all the same thing, the DISTANCE is so short that it doesn't matter one bit (provided it is adequate).

A long, thin extension cord will NOT make an amp run hotter (and in fact will make most amps run COOLER). What an excessively thin AND LONG extension cord will do is reduce the power of most amps because available AC voltage becomes insufficient to deliver rated power. Your amp won't care, it won't be less happy, and in the case of a well designed amp will enter protection mode under a serious low voltage condition.

The less expensive OEM cables must meet the same safety testing as the expensive ones (in fact many of the boutique power cables aren't even tested and many won't pass the tests anyway) which include flexing and ageing tests for reliability. Accountants/purchasing agents can not buy a cable that does not pass the agency testing, and even if they were able to, it would be caught in a safety agency factory inspection which would result in a very expensive and disrupting situation.

I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is horribly incorrect/inaccurate.

While the UL standard must be met - the requirement for flexibility (which is really what I was on about) is in practical terms inadequate for the working pro - as Jimmy said, these are essentially a business machine cord (computer/monitor) and the expectation is they will be plugged-in/out a few times a year, not nightly while being stepped on/rolled over by sound guys. I sold these for years in and I can assure you that the cheapos do NOT like being flexed, the good ones are made to do so.
And once again - a 100% agree a "boutique" power cord is a ridiculous scam - I started off with that.

 

[Pilgrim]

You and many thousands of other players apparently

I think so, because if you have ever tried to find a used Genz-Benz Shuttle to buy, it's pretty darn slim pickins'. I think the ability to overdrive the Gain section of the preamp on the Shuttles is one of its most clever and attractive features. It evidently suits the tonal preferences of a whole lotta people!

 

[Al Kraft]

I've heard poor sounding (to my ear) equipment using with virtually every combination of power supply/supply control, preamp and power amp design out there. Poor design and execution is not amplifier class or power supply dependent. As a corollary, great design and execution isn't dependent on starting with any particular amplifier class/topology, power supply or power supply control, but rather selecting the best options to satisfy the design goals.

As an engineer I honestly can't buy into any "one size fits all" observation about how classes of amplifiers perform, with the exception of some inherent characteristics/attributes associated with each class which are addressed as part of the total system design solution.

I would also say that even your 6 sigma "out in left/right field" listener would likely be able to hear a difference between Aguilar TH series and GK MB series heads. Whether they would confuse one for being class A/B (maybe even with tubes) is another story, but I find it highly unlikely that they would characterize those two tonal extremes as both being "sterile", even though both are class D.

 

[DigitalMan]

While the UL standard must be met - the requirement for flexibility (which is really what I was on about) is in practical terms inadequate for the working pro - as Jimmy said, these are essentially a business machine cord (computer/monitor) and the expectation is they will be plugged-in/out a few times a year, not nightly while being stepped on/rolled over by sound guys. I sold these for years in and I can assure you that the cheapos do NOT like being flexed, the good ones are made to do so.
And once again - a 100% agree a "boutique" power cord is a ridiculous scam - I started off with that.

The need for ruggedized cords and excessive wear and tear is an entirely different conversation.

 

[JimmyM]

The $200 ESP power cord will crack your outlet face because it's extra heavy and not flexible.

Nope, not the least bit flexible. Had no idea it would crack the outlet face, though. Holy geez!

 

[danosix]

The need for ruggedized cords and excessive wear and tear is an entirely different conversation.

That's really what I was talking about - though it's my fault for bringing in the OTHER stuff (which, again tends to go along with this).
I think anyone who pays more than the price of a good set of strings for a cord is out of their minds - the flip side is - do you want to add to the net effect of all the crap wiring that exists in most clubs/bars/theatres because you're saving the price of a set of strings, right? But you are absolutely right - I went down the rabbit hole when really I was talking about toughness/reliability - for which there is little comparison. It's like the ORANGE drop caps - I forget who the boutique builder was who said it, but while he didn't actually believe there was a difference, he felt the one dollar difference in cost on an expensive guitar wasn't worth the chance that maybe SOMEONE's ear could hear the difference. You
Same as the sound difference between the cheapo instrument cable and the "boutique one" is non-existent (or at least likely inaudible) until its been used a couple of times and the cheap braid starts to kink and create gaps in the shielding and the less flexible conductors start adding capacitance as they break down and cut bass and treble - and yes you CAN hear that.
I worked in the electronics industry for a couple of decades and I hear ALL the myths, but I never really bought into them. I recommended that people bought GOOD cables, I never recommended Monster Cables (hardly boutique, but the most expensive we carried) My own equipment was wired with Monster and Equivalent, but only because I won stuff and/or waited for them to go discontinued and would buy them for less than the cheapies (which didn't go discontinued because they don't change packaging/marketing ploy).
For the record, I never went looking for "audio" power cords, but was careful to test my cords for strenght/flexibility when I needed one because the cheap ones totally have failed on me. In fact I usually just waited for spare good grade power cords (usually someone stole a higher-end product off the floor) and took those home.

 

[danosix]

Nope, not the least bit flexible. Had no idea it would crack the outlet face, though. Holy geez!

So to my original point, it's a scam as an improvement and it's not even tougher/more practical as a cord...

 

[SteveCS]

My old Ashdowns and Marshalls were warm, rounded and full of character and flubbed out, ie sounded the same no matter how I played, above about half volume. My Shuttle is crystal clear, uncoloured and dripping with headroom meaning it is highly accurate, responsive and nuanced. Some might call this sterile, but what I realised when I made the change is that previously I was listening to the amp, and now I hear my bass and everything I put into it. It responds in a predictable way, reliably reproducing rather than fighting variations in technique.
So as much as I appreciate the distinctive voices of classic amp/cab combinations (,and let's face it, most of the voicing comes from the cab) I prefer to hear the instrument rather than the amp, and get the tones I want from my hands rather than radical EQ or complicated gain structures.
As always YMMV, and probably will.

 

[JimmyM]

So to my original point, it's a scam as an improvement and it's not even tougher/more practical as a cord...

Totally agreed. Not the least bit practical.

 

[agedhorse]

Funny, out of the tens of thousands of OEM power cords I have dealt with in products I have designed, I think maybe 2 or 3 that were a verifiable failure, and one was due to being crushed by something very sharp.

The data doesn't support that OEM power cables are inferior in ANY MEANINGFUL WAY.

 

[danosix]

Funny, out of the tens of thousands of OEM power cords I have dealt with in products I have designed, I think maybe 2 or 3 that were a verifiable failure, and one was due to being crushed by something very sharp.

The data doesn't support that OEM power cables are inferior in ANY MEANINGFUL WAY.

Glad to hear you're dealing with good quality stuff - but you are at Mesa and Genz - lots of other companies like to cut corners - and that's the kind of place that some of the big "corporate" players cut corners because so many players never leave their homes so they can get away with crap.
I'm also not talking about out and out failure - but degredation. Anyhoo... it's happened to me, and I like to be careful ever since - nothing ruins a gig like a stupid technical failure.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

My old Ashdowns and Marshalls were warm, rounded and full of character and flubbed out, ie sounded the same no matter how I played, above about half volume. My Shuttle is crystal clear, uncoloured and dripping with headroom.

I have a couple of short-lived models of Warwick ProFets and they have a gain structure that means that half way is half the perceived loudness, rather than half the gain, and people returned them as not sounding loud enough compared to other amps of the same wattage, but others might perceive it as more headroom. It meant I got them cheap due to people thinking they were quiet, so I'm happy.

I had an Ashdown combo briefly (in theory I still have the guts) before it died due to a fall which broke it in half, but didn't like the sound that much in the end as it was too coloured.

 

[agedhorse]

Glad to hear you're dealing with good quality stuff - but you are at Mesa and Genz - lots of other companies like to cut corners - and that's the kind of place that some of the big "corporate" players cut corners because so many players never leave their homes so they can get away with crap.
I'm also not talking about out and out failure - but degredation. Anyhoo... it's happened to me, and I like to be careful ever since - nothing ruins a gig like a stupid technical failure.

I've worked at big corporate type companies as well, never saw this problem there either. It's really difficult to ship crappy AC power cords because of the safety requirements... and you can bet the bigger companies are the ones that pay the most attention to this sort of thing. There's just too much to loose not to.

If you got a bad one,bummer, but my experience is a lot different than yours.

 

[JimmyM]

Glad to hear you're dealing with good quality stuff - but you are at Mesa and Genz - lots of other companies like to cut corners - and that's the kind of place that some of the big "corporate" players cut corners because so many players never leave their homes so they can get away with crap.
I'm also not talking about out and out failure - but degredation. Anyhoo... it's happened to me, and I like to be careful ever since - nothing ruins a gig like a stupid technical failure.

You would be wrong about that, my brother. The cord gauge and length is dictated by the regulating bodies, and the included cords must conform to those standards or it doesn't get approved. And neither the regulating bodies nor the manufacturers want to be responsible for you having a fire or an amp frying by including an AC cord that doesn't meet spec, corporate or not. It's way cheaper for them to include a proper AC cable than to fix a fried amp under warranty, and it's certainly way cheaper not to get sued by someone who gets injured or dies because of an improper cable. Do they try to get the best deals possible? Absolutely they do. But the cables still meet UL spec. Good enough for me.

As for degradation, sure, anything will break if you abuse it, but I've had some of my AC cables for 20 years or longer, and in that time, I have had zero failures with any of them.

 

[seamonkey]

I am considering marketing a new device. It will basically be a box with an Amazon fire stick in. You will connect your record desk to it, and it will use Shazam to work out what you are playing, stream at FLAC of it from Amazon, and apply a filter to it to degrade the quality, and lift the needle 1mm off the vinyl to preserve it. $1500 msrp.

The plugin market is full of vinyl tools
Waves Abbey Road Vinyl is a good one (many others though). It's actually kind of cool for parts of songs, or soundtracks.

It lets you place the tone arm on the outside or inside of the vinyl - it can automate the move over time.

And add in all the Wow and Flutter and other artifacts you want.

If you decide you don't want all these vinyl artifacts, even off a real record, you can buy plugins for that too. Celemony Capstan for example. It is being used to restore many old recordings. Unfortunately if costs much much more to clean this stuff out once it's in the media, than to put it in then first place.

For archiving really old vinyl the Library of Congress and others use a laser scanning photographic process. It can stitch together even broken or melted vinyl.