Anyone still prefer Class A/B amps over Class D?

[BadExample]

even off a real record, you can buy plugins for that too

Or Linux it for free

Funny, out of the tens of thousands of OEM power cords I have dealt with in products I have designed, I think maybe 2 or 3 that were a verifiable failure, and one was due to being crushed by something very sharp.

The data doesn't support that OEM power cables are inferior in ANY MEANINGFUL WAY.

I had similar experience with cords purchased in quantity for $1.50 in the 80's and 90's. All that died were smashed or more often suffered chemical spills.

We did OEM a POS that had cords that weren't reliable if the customer used a US cord. Their cord fit tight in our corcom sockets and worked after great force, ours fit loose in theirs sockets. Their junk blew up regularly anyway, so it was mute. Certainly not a power cord quality problem.

 

[R Baer]

My experience comes from 10+ years of gigging in all environments with a range of heads. I'm not going to say the micros sound 'worse', but the heads I've tried certainly seem to have a common characteristic that doesn't ring my bell.

There's a good reason for that and it's because many of the class D heads out there are using the same OEM class D modules in their product, with the majority being IcePower. When you have dozens of amps all sharing the same amp modules, there are bound to be similarities in the characteristics of those amps and I think that's an important point to make when having these class d discussions. In other words, while you may have had experience with a few class D heads that lead you to believe that you didn't like the class D topology, it's very possible you were playing different amps that all had the same module in them. Of course, no discussion about power amps on TB without those chiming in that believe power is power and that the power section makes no difference in the the sound or performance of the amp. To each his own, but I'm firmly in the camp that the power section in your amp has a profound affect on the feel and sound of your amp.

In my opinion a lot of the backlash against class D amps comes from the the first crop of mass marketed amps to hit the market that had the early IcePower modules in them. Keep in mind that class D had been done many years before, but it was really the advent of the relatively inexpensive, drop in OEM class D modules by IcePower that really got the class D bass amp ball rolling. And while there will certainly be many opinions on this matter, IMO, these early IceModules left a lot to be desired when it came to the amount of low end heft that was perceived from the amp. I perceived them to have great burst power, but little reserve power which would allow that note to have sustained heft after the initial attack of the note. I also felt the top end was a bit harsh and could cause ear fatigue faster that the class A/B power sections.

That said, I think the newest generation of class D modules have come a long way and are much closer to the sound and feel I prefer and are only getting better and better. I just wanted to mention that when a lot of bass players talk about class D as a topology, they are really referring to their experience with a limited number of OEM modules that most companies are using and not the actual class D topology itself as a whole.

 

[agedhorse]

Lots of armchair quarter-backing and reasons without ever having designed one of these products, or even being in the position to test IDENTICAL preamps with matched class AB and class D topologies. Doing so is quite revealing in that done properly, both can yield virtally identical results in double-blind testing.

Where much of the denigration of class D and SMPS comes from IMO, is from manufacturers who were not successful in developing viable products. It's not easy to develop excellent implementations in class D, it takes a lot more than "plug and play" data sheet design. You get out of the process what you put into it. Unfortunately there are plenty of examples of poor products out there, products that got introduced, then failed to deliver (in performance or quality). There was one failed attempt before the Shuttle 3.0 that just about ruined the prospect of that module being viable for the bass industry... can't say which one but they are no longer a major player in the industry (and they used to be).

I have designed tube power amps, class AB/G power amps, class D power amps (once I started working with AND UNDERSTANDING the IcePower technology, there was no need to continue with my class D R&D) and have spent hours comparing the different formats and optimizing each one. My opinions are based on this... marketing departments be damned.

 

[Bass4LifeRS]

I'm reading the thread only to enjoy Agedhorses wisdom and experience. Love it.
I play a TC Rh750 and a Warwick Hellborg amp. One is class D and the other is solid state. Great amps both, to me

 

[joel406]

Lots of armchair quarter-backing and reasons without ever having designed one of these products, or even being in the position to test IDENTICAL preamps with matched class AB and class D topologies. Doing so is quite revealing in that done properly, both can yield virtally identical results in double-blind testing.

Where much of the denigration of class D and SMPS comes from IMO, is from manufacturers who were not successful in developing viable products. It's not easy to develop excellent implementations in class D, it takes a lot more than "plug and play" data sheet design. You get out of the process what you put into it. Unfortunately there are plenty of examples of poor products out there, products that got introduced, then failed to deliver (in performance or quality). There was one failed attempt before the Shuttle 3.0 that just about ruined the prospect of that module being viable for the bass industry... can't say which one but they are no longer a major player in the industry (and they used to be).

I have designed tube power amps, class AB/G power amps, class D power amps (once I started working with AND UNDERSTANDING the IcePower technology, there was no need to continue with my class D R&D) and have spent hours comparing the different formats and optimizing each one. My opinions are based on this... marketing departments be damned.

I gotta agree. I have played a lot of amps since the 1970s. These class D amps get nothing but compliments everywhere I play em. Have I used tubes? Do I know what I'm talking about? Yes and somewhat.

Class D is a wonderful option that has not only power but awesome tone.

 

[staccatogrowl]

I'm reading the thread only to enjoy Agedhorses wisdom and experience. Love it.

Agree. A lot of chaff to sift and choke through to find that wheat. . The only thing more enjoyable than agedhorse's wise words is using any of the numerous class-D products he has designed. Profound contributions! Thanks, Andy

 

[seamonkey]

Or Linux it for free

Tracktion Waveform DAW now runs on a Raspberry Pi

Anyone Prefer one of the Raspberry Pi Linux's over x86 Linux's?

 

[wolfkeller]

Well, I sold my SVT Heritage for a GK 2001. Micro...They're toys to me and I'll never own one. If I'm gna cry over carrying an amp I should stay home. Maybe when I'm 60, if I ever am, I feel different. Naw, I'll pay someone to do it for me.

 

[David Jayne]

After owning a few amps over the years, maybe a dozen, including three different class D's and a class H, I think the best one I've heard is my trusty TF550B. Whatever that's worth.

 

[Al Kraft]

Where much of the denigration of class D and SMPS comes from IMO, is from manufacturers who were not successful in developing viable products. It's not easy to develop excellent implementations in class D, it takes a lot more than "plug and play" data sheet design. You get out of the process what you put into it.

This to me is the heart of the issue. I see lots of folks who do what I call "catalog part assembly engineering" in many different fields. While success, and what even may later be hailed as an innovation can occur with this approach, it's not what I would characterize as great design work.

To me, understanding the capabilities and idiosyncrasies of the components themselves is an essential element of great design work. Many times an innovative design will exploit a particular attribute in a certain mode/regime of operation - it's hard to do that when you're only working with first order specifications and just matching components within that context.

If you subscribe to this concept, then its easier to see why two or three designs all employing the same "significant components" might operate with a completely different signature sound, tonal range, voicing, feel, etc. In the end, it's about the total system and how the designer utilizes everything the components bring to the table, not just their first tier advertised capabilities. While my experience base is outside the field of pro-sound and MI amplifier design, I don't feel it's an unreasonable leap of faith to draw this conclusion.

 

[CharlyG]

My thoughts are, I want the amp to faithfully reproduce what I put into it. I will use other devices to control my tone, just amplify that. I also prefer output distortion to preamp distortion, so it's easiest to get with tubes, but I find less gain and more master seems to work well with Class D. I thought the Ampeg B2RE (not class D)was sterile. I tried it twice back in the day and I couldn't find the "magic" I have now. It was the same for me with Ashdown before Class D, altho it DID color the sound.

 

[bassfootballguy]

My experience is a good sounding amp is a good sounding amp. I've heard some Class D that sounded bad and have certainly heard and used three that sound very nice.
As for the older "lead sled" or heavier amps, I love some of them, too. It's a matter of preference.

James

 

[Jason Hollar]

When I play a tube amp its like a BIG lively red rubber kick ball bouncing into you with all the dynamic response, feel, and dimension. A good solid state amp might be more like a medicine ball. Its hefty, thick and hits ya hard and you can catch it and go "damn, thats heavy!" The class D hits you hard too, but more like you got smacked with a big piece of 4x8 Drywall.

Love this.

 

[Hand slap]

After reading the entire thread I believe I am now entitled to post my opinion, lol. I first picked up a bass back in the late 70's (showing my age) and started playing in the 80's. In that time I have owned or played a multitude of backlined rigs including many various Ampegs, Fenders, Hartke, Crate, Peavey, Acoustic, Mesa and Carvin all the way up to more recent Class D amps. The reason I am posting this information is because I don't believe in Class A/B is better than Class D or vice versa.

IMO and IME it is more about certain amps sounding better than others based on their design goals rather than topology. I've played Class A/B Ampegs that sounded great and other Ampegs that didn't. Same goes for Fender and Mesa as well as other manufacturers. I've also played many Class D amps that I really liked while others, not so much. At this stage of my life I somehow ended up owning several Class D amps, and a GB NEO PAK which is not, and it has nothing to do with weight. I lift weights so that is not an issue. It has to do with me liking the tone and the feel that they produce.

However if a nice Genz Benz GBE 750, Thunderfunk TFB550 or GK 700rb II came my way at a great price, I would definitely jump on it. Not because I think they are better than my Class D amps but because they are great amps on their own, regardless of topology. I'm done now. Time to go read some other threads, play my bass and watch WrestleMania.

Have a nice day.

Well said, I found a TF 750, had it converted to an 850, love the amp, loved many class D too.

 

[Al Kraft]

I thought the Ampeg B2RE (not class D)was sterile.

Exact same experience and impression. That was truly the Ampeg amp for people who didn't want the Ampeg signature sound IMO.

 

[nostatic]

My thoughts are, I want the amp to faithfully reproduce what I put into it. I will use other devices to control my tone, just amplify that. I also prefer output distortion to preamp distortion, so it's easiest to get with tubes, but I find less gain and more master seems to work well with Class D. I thought the Ampeg B2RE (not class D)was sterile. I tried it twice back in the day and I couldn't find the "magic" I have now. It was the same for me with Ashdown before Class D, altho it DID color the sound.

Your first two statements kind of contradict themselves. If you want to get out what you put in, then power amp distortion isn't desirable. If it is desireable, then you want the amp to color your sound.

I think this is part of the problem. Players want "plenty of headroom" but also want "tube compression", want "flat eq" but don't want "sterile". There's an ex-wife joke in there somewhere...

Every design is a compromise, and ya gotta pick which compromise fits your playing style, gigs, logistics, etc. the trick is finding the best fit, the curse is there's always a new candidate that has the promise of "better".

 

[CharlyG]

If I may, I would like to invoke the Senior Moment Clause. I had a brain short when describing the bass amp and started describing the Renegade. I don't distort the bass. It is just the "wool" of the QPs and the SVT210AV giving me my touch of grind. I like more master than gain on my B600HD.

 

[Razman]

My response to the thread title's question is a simple "yes."

 

[metron]

This was a contentious topic in this forum ten years ago. Lead sleds (two foot long power amps) vs the switching stuff. Gain matching and whatnot. Slam. Heft. Same. Different. This thread was almost nostalgic.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Mesa M9 Carbine. 48 lbs of bulls balls. And yes, from my experience so far, I prefer the A/B power to class D. Seems to me to have a thicker, more percussive and immediate bottom end drive to the tone, but to be fair, there's a lot of high end class D I haven't tried. Yet.......