Anyone still prefer Class A/B amps over Class D?

[slagheap]

to me nothing on this earth sounds or feels like a CA9. i used both alembic & ampeg preamps.
CA9 + pre + proper rack case + maze of cables, = approx. 100 lbs. of PIA.

 

[wateroftyne]

There's a good reason for that and it's because many of the class D heads out there are using the same OEM class D modules in their product, with the majority being IcePower. When you have dozens of amps all sharing the same amp modules, there are bound to be similarities in the characteristics of those amps and I think that's an important point to make when having these class d discussions. In other words, while you may have had experience with a few class D heads that lead you to believe that you didn't like the class D topology, it's very possible you were playing different amps that all had the same module in them. Of course, no discussion about power amps on TB without those chiming in that believe power is power and that the power section makes no difference in the the sound or performance of the amp. To each his own, but I'm firmly in the camp that the power section in your amp has a profound affect on the feel and sound of your amp.

Absolutely - I'm very much aware of this, and that's why I gave up buying them.

I'm not writing Class D off forever, but rather than buy every new kid on the block, I'll stick with what I love for now, and maybe try something in a few generations time

 

[bucephylus]

to me nothing on this earth sounds or feels like a CA9. i used both alembic & ampeg preamps.
CA9 + pre + proper rack case + maze of cables, = approx. 100 lbs. of PIA.

IIRC, @agedhorse has previously posted that the CA9 does indeed have something special going on; but that is specific to the particular design topology not a characteristic of Class A/B, per se. Still, most on TB agree the CA9 is a great piece of gear. I'm sticking with the ProLite 3.0, due to its weight/performance factor. But, I continue to watch the CA9's out there.

 

[bucephylus]

This was a contentious topic in this forum ten years ago. Lead sleds (two foot long power amps) vs the switching stuff. Gain matching and whatnot. Slam. Heft. Same. Different. This thread was almost nostalgic.

Right there with you. Still, the recent advances in the performance of the latest gen micros makes the question worth tossing around, even if we need to work through some "entertaining" exchanges.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Absolutely - I'm very much aware of this, and that's why I gave up buying them.

I'm not writing Class D off forever, but rather than buy every new kid on the block, I'll stick with what I love for now, and maybe try something in a few generations time

I've had several different Class D heads with various power modules. The best to date has been the Pascal in my Trickfish Bullhead 1k. It has that "weight" that people usually attribute to linear amps. The new Bullhead .5k uses the 700W ICE module and it is a fantastic amp that will compete with anything out there, but the headroom and dynamic punch of the 1k is noticeable.

 

[Chef]

Ah yes
The good old days where every thread of this sort ended locked with multiple citations.
Let's not relive that.

QUOTE="metron, post: 19902293, member: 35082"]This was a contentious topic in this forum ten years ago. Lead sleds (two foot long power amps) vs the switching stuff. Gain matching and whatnot. Slam. Heft. Same. Different. This thread was almost nostalgic. [/QUOTE]

 

[phillybass101]

Makes me no difference as long as I can still make noise. And, after the FOH gets ahold of you, you're going to sound like they want you to anyway.

 

[phillybass101]

different tools for different jobs.
I have full tube (Fender Studio), tube pre into mosfet power (Mesa Walkabout) tube pre into class D power (Demeter VTBP-M-800D) and all SS (Ampeg PF500). They all have the juice but they bring it in different and great ways. They all hit very hard when called on to do so. I tend to favor the lightest amp (Demeter) because it's just easy to roll in with a 10lb 800w head (with a Berg CN212 or NV610) and get going. OTOH, the Fender Studio is truly a thing to behold when it's running on top of the NV610.
so, do I prefer A/B over others, not at all, but I sure do like it when I use it.

I thought you were going to say different tools for different fools LOL!!!!

 

[Geordiecs]

And, after the FOH gets ahold of you, you're going to sound like they want you to anyway.

Yeah doesn't that just drive you nuts? Break your back to get your tone and it goes out the window.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah doesn't that just drive you nuts? Break your back to get your tone and it goes out the window.

I've found that if I want my FOH tone to sound like my amp tone, all I usually have to do is ask them...and throw a grand worth of gear and pedals at my DI line

 

[pfschim]

I thought you were going to say different tools for different fools LOL!!!!

well, that too

 

[pfschim]

Well, the OP certainly hit a nerve (even if it's a very well worn nerve here on TB).
not sure what the OP would take away from this 15 pages of replies on this sometimes highly entertaining thread
not sure what I would take away from any of this other than:
- there are a lot of amps (with different designs/topologies) for all of us to choose from (which is cool)
- we all have opinions on amps (shocking news), and some of those opinions are technically
informed, some are experientially informed, while others are emotionally informed.

none of these threads ever changes my mind about my own amp choices and how happy I am with them, but then again, I have examples of most common amp types to work with, and I use them all to meet different playing needs (as I seem them).

people keep hiring me, so I'm going to guess I'm doing something right.

 

[Geordiecs]

I've found that if I want my FOH tone to sound like my amp tone, all I usually have to do is ask them...and throw a grand worth of gear and pedals at my DI line

My bass 400+ has that wimpy di (I've heard some units it's ok, my unit it's not) so I usually ask for a mic setup

Not feasible in every venue though

 

[pfschim]

I've found that if I want my FOH tone to sound like my amp tone, all I usually have to do is ask them...and throw a grand worth of gear and pedals at my DI line

well, maybe not quite $1k, but I get what your saying

 

[agedhorse]

I've found that if I want my FOH tone to sound like my amp tone, all I usually have to do is ask them...

Generally, this goes a long way towards getting "your tone" but it's also possible for a really good sound guy to help you expand your tone to beyond what was possible with your stage rig. He just needs to know what you would like to achieve, then use the additional tools (and rig) available to him to go to places you might have wanted to go to but didn't have the rig necessary to get there.

I used to run into this all the time, big flown PA with plenty of subs and plenty of headroom. Of course this system would not be practical for most bass players to travel with (20 feet of truck pack), but with the additional tools I was able to deliver the additional performance. Bass players would grin from ear to ear when they stepped out to FOH and listened to the bass. Never any issues (I mostly worked with touring pros), except from the real hack players who insisted that their 10" combo with the bass eq cranked and the speaker screaming for mercy was "the ultimate tone". They were either the opening act, or an act that was thrilled to fill 50 seats on their own. They were also the "experts", with the balls to give the headliner their opinions and how they are experts with all kinds of experience (like been playing bass for "3 whole years" except they might say "for 36... months"!)

 

[Geordiecs]

Generally, this goes a long way towards getting "your tone" but it's also possible for a really good sound guy to help you expand your tone to beyond what was possible with your stage rig. He just needs to know what you would like to achieve, then use the additional tools (and rig) available to him to go to places you might have wanted to go to but didn't have the rig necessary to get there.

I used to run into this all the time, big flown PA with plenty of subs and plenty of headroom. Of course this system would not be practical for most bass players to travel with (20 feet of truck pack), but with the additional tools I was able to deliver the additional performance. Bass players would grin from ear to ear when they stepped out to FOH and listened to the bass. Never any issues (I mostly worked with touring pros), except from the real hack players who insisted that their 10" combo with the bass eq cranked and the speaker screaming for mercy was "the ultimate tone". They were either the opening act, or an act that was thrilled to fill 50 seats on their own. They were also the "experts", with the balls to give the headliner their opinions and how they are experts with all kinds of experience (like been playing bass for "3 whole years" except they might say "for 36... months"!)

Yeah, I've definitely been on the positive side of the equation where someone who actually knows what they're doing gives me a whole new sound to chase.

It's a shame having a beautiful tone still doesn't make me any better at playing

 

[BadExample]

Generally, this goes a long way towards getting "your tone" but it's also possible for a really good sound guy to help you expand your tone to beyond what was possible with your stage rig. He just needs to know what you would like to achieve, then use the additional tools (and rig) available to him to go to places you might have wanted to go to but didn't have the rig necessary to get there.

I used to run into this all the time, big flown PA with plenty of subs and plenty of headroom. Of course this system would not be practical for most bass players to travel with (20 feet of truck pack), but with the additional tools I was able to deliver the additional performance. Bass players would grin from ear to ear when they stepped out to FOH and listened to the bass. Never any issues (I mostly worked with touring pros), except from the real hack players who insisted that their 10" combo with the bass eq cranked and the speaker screaming for mercy was "the ultimate tone". They were either the opening act, or an act that was thrilled to fill 50 seats on their own. They were also the "experts", with the balls to give the headliner their opinions and how they are experts with all kinds of experience (like been playing bass for "3 whole years" except they might say "for 36... months"!)

Use dogs years and dont mention ots dogs years. 21 years and counting.

 

[R Baer]

Lots of armchair quarter-backing and reasons without ever having designed one of these products, or even being in the position to test IDENTICAL preamps with matched class AB and class D topologies. Doing so is quite revealing in that done properly, both can yield virtally identical results in double-blind testing.

Where much of the denigration of class D and SMPS comes from IMO, is from manufacturers who were not successful in developing viable products. It's not easy to develop excellent implementations in class D, it takes a lot more than "plug and play" data sheet design. You get out of the process what you put into it. Unfortunately there are plenty of examples of poor products out there, products that got introduced, then failed to deliver (in performance or quality). There was one failed attempt before the Shuttle 3.0 that just about ruined the prospect of that module being viable for the bass industry... can't say which one but they are no longer a major player in the industry (and they used to be).

I have designed tube power amps, class AB/G power amps, class D power amps (once I started working with AND UNDERSTANDING the IcePower technology, there was no need to continue with my class D R&D) and have spent hours comparing the different formats and optimizing each one. My opinions are based on this... marketing departments be damned.

Andy, I was simply offering my opinion in response to this post. "I'm not going to say the micros sound 'worse', but the heads I've tried certainly seem to have a common characteristic that doesn't ring my bell." When the class D amps started coming out I bought, or spent time with a number of them of them and found that to my ear, there were indeed similarities in what I was hearing from the IcePowered units. In my experience every one of these amps sounded dramatically better by running the preamp out into my Stewart World 2.1, Ashdown ABM500, or Aguilar DB750. We were also working on a IcePowered class D at the time and abandoned that path because we all felt our objectives could not be met with the technology at that time. Our engineering team was fully up to the task and knows how to set up listening test. Believe it or not, there are other very talented people out there. What I was trying to point out was the fact that many players made up their minds about class D based on the performance of the first wave of class D amps to hit the market and that the newest generation of class D amps have come a long way and are much better suited for our instrument.

While I have great respect for your talents, you do tend to adopt an attitude that anyone who has a different opinion than yours must be some kind of rube. The point of these forums is for people to be able to read different points of view and I think the community as a whole benefits when people are able to express themselves without someone else trying to diminish their position. And while it's great to say that your opinions aren't based on marketing, people should also consider that commercial users can hardly be expected to provide totally unbiased opinions that don't paint their company's products, or the technologies that they use in anything other than the very best light.

 

[chris_b]

It's a shame having a beautiful tone still doesn't make me any better at playing

. . . . but it does make people like my playing more than they would if I still played the same . . . . but sounded bad.

 

[wateroftyne]

I should point out that the Class D heads I've worked my way through over the years include Acoustic Image (I was an early adopter back in the day), RH450, The Shuttle, STL 9.0, Promethean (which I still have for backup), and latterly a Demeter.

All sounded great, but none ever 'felt' right (to me). And with the best will in the world, no-one is going to be able to tell me I'm imagining it, no matter how much I respect them

(Incidentally, the GBE 750 I had back in the day was awesome)