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Are Local Venues Killing Music?

#241
hrodbert696 said:
I had my eyes opened about this when I was reading about the early days of American punk. CBGB's, the legendary CBGB's, was actually EXACTLY the kind of ****hole that you describe as to blame for killing live music - but it was ground zero for American punk, and later New Wave (Blondie and the Talking Heads came out of its scene). The other thing that really impressed me was how FEW venues those bands had to play in - CBGB's, Max's, and maybe two or three other places - in NEW YORK CITY.
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Excellent point. The venues described by the OP have always been around and probably always will be, as long as enough people want some ****hole to get drunk in. If this is bad for the grassroots music scene, I don't think it's the venues' fault. There's a lot more competition for live music these days than there was in the 60s and 70s: TV, video games, internet, etc. There's no use complaining, that's just the way it is.

Meanwhile, my college-age son tells me he attends house parties where kids bring instruments and jam, and young bands will play--it's a thing. So maybe there's hope yet.
 
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#242
socialleper said:
On Talk Bass we flap our gums a lot about the damage digital streaming has done to the revenues of original artists. But what about the damage being done at the roots of the music biz; the local venue? As a guy trying to play smaller clubs and bars, it seems to me like these guys are doing just as much to stifle the music biz as pirates.
When was the last time you went to a gig not to play, not to see a friend play, or not to see a bigger artist play? When was the last time you wanted to just be at a nearby bar or club? (If there is even a nearby bar or club.) As a consumer, by and large, most of them are dumps I don't want to be at. They are usually in sketchy parts of town with no parking and a weak selection of overpriced drinks served by a salty (at best) employees. Even ones that are only a few years old look decades old. Oh boy, more black and darkwood with red lighting! Will I get a staph infection from the bathroom? Who knows, it is out of order; not that the door really closed anyway. Really the only driver for these places are the live bands.
And how do they treat their live bands? Well, again, no parking. If you if leave your gear in the car it is totally going to get stolen. Loading in is through the small front door everyone is standing in front of. (Don't worry miss; go ahead and block my way while I drag gear that weighs more than you do, around you.) Stairs? Awesome! Is that a stage or two pallets you stacked on top of each other in the corner and painted black? They do such a great job advertising that the only people in there are the people I brought to the show. And for all the hard work they did, obviously they don't need to share the door or bar take with me; a solo cup half filled with Bud Light will pay for my gas and time.
Local venues seem to put zero effort into their appearance or amenities, then complain they aren't making any money. No duh; your venue is unattractive, has no vibe, and is a pain in the backside for customers and bands alike. If these small venues are the birth places of up and coming musicians, and are apathetically slumming their ways towards insolvency, where will the next generation of musicians go to cut their teeth? Where will young men or women go to catch the music bug? Will people want to go live it up at a place that throbs with the aura of necrotizing dreams?
It feels to me like a little paint, a mop, and maybe some working urinals could go a long way to rejuvenate local music scenes. Am I wrong? Am I taking crazy pills here?
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I don't know man but here in Baltimore we have tons of great venues of all shapes and sizes. We also tend have dirt cheap beer and whiskey where ever you go... As for parking--it's in the city, what do you expect.

And yes, some venues treat you better than others...and the venues that treat us well, we tend to book ourselves there more. Why keep going to a place you don't like?

Also, here in Baltimore there's plenty of bars that either share the bar (usually like 10%) or just straight up give you the door. There's also some great promoters that give us a cut of our ticket sales...and the more we sell the better time slot and bigger gigs we get.

Not sure what to say... Maybe its your area.
 
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#243
hrodbert696 said:
But that's exactly my point - yes, CBGB's was willing to book unknown and upcoming acts. But in all of New York City, they were practically the only bar that did. Most of the bars in the city were only booking cover bands then, too. So how should we expect much more if we're in second- or third-tier markets like Manchester or South Bend or Boise? And from what I've read, I don't think it was because the management had a forward-thinking master plan. They knew they wanted music, but the name stands for "country, bluegrass and blues." The managers didn't know how to book the kinds of acts they wanted, so they handed the job to musician friends, who went and invited all their punk friends in.

I think you're also right, though, about the problems with a lot - maybe most - cover bands. I'm just now trying to launch a band to cover 21st century alternative and indie music, resorting to CL because most musicians I know are either already busy, don't want to gig, or live too far away. I've gotten some responses, and from some, right off the bat, I start getting people saying they want to do older music. Yes, there's a lot of Geezer Rock out there, badly played, that isn't at all appealing to younger crowds who actually go out. I think a lot of the problem is guitarists, honestly. If being in a band doesn't pay the bills, then they want to play music that they feel good about playing, and that's inevitably going to be guitar-hero stuff, which if not what modern music is about. So they insist on playing all this music that nobody in the crowd gives a dam about.
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Duh, rereading your post I realize we're on the same page there. And yeah, you're right, if there's so few venues willing to take a risk in even big cities, what hope is there for original acts further out.

PluckyThump said:
What qualifies as "exciting stuff" for younger folks when it comes to live bands?
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Yeah, that's a bit amorphous when I say "exciting stuff", but I suppose what I mean by that isn't so much genre specific, but more performance related. What I see all too often are a bunch of old dudes, wearing khakis and dad jeans and Hawaiian shirts and maybe a fedora or three thrown in for good measure, just bobbing along doing their standard covers. Maybe 3+ songs a set in standard I-I And that's all well and fine, but it's a bit sedate, and it's a bit dull, and that's what I mean is the opposite of exciting. Low energy. I've played in cover bands for years, but always try to keep it interesting with high energy songs, with crowd interaction from the singer, with tricks and what not (playing behind the head, playing under my leg, etc). It's not really the song choices that are keeping younger folks away in my experience, if you play old songs with vigor and enthusiasm and energy, people will usually enjoy it. It's the performance.
 
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#244
mikeyjm2 said:
Take this with a huge grain of salt (probably more like a boulder) as I've only been gigging actively for the last couple of years, but the two biggest factors in why we get return bookings to venues:

1. We bring people to the venue

2. We control the volume of the performance

I
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This--- two things have cost me more repeat gigs than ANYTHING else.

1. Too loud guitars "I need to play this loud to get MY tone".
2. Too loud drummers. "I can't hit the drums less hard or use a smaller kit, and I MUST mic my kick drum/ snare/ toms for a venue the size of a mobile home".

If the owners/customers tell you it is too loud, IT IS. Period.

The average person at the Tilted Kilt or Sports Bar isn't looking to get their ear drums blasted.

As bassists usually we are the ones who aren't heard but only felt because of this as well.

My people I did bring to gigs, told me it was too **** loud and didn't come again.
 
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#246
obimark said:
2. Too loud drummers. "I can't hit the drums less hard or use a smaller kit, and I MUST mic my kick drum/ snare/ toms for a venue the size of a mobile home".
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Good point on the drums too which I neglected to mention. Our drummer uses an electronic kit vs. the other band I mentioned was using an acoustic kit (and mic'd up at that). So much easier to control electronic drums and actually both drummers I play with use them. I'm thankful for that!
 
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#248
obimark said:
1. Too loud guitars "I need to play this loud to get MY tone".
2. Too loud drummers. "I can't hit the drums less hard or use a smaller kit, and I MUST mic my kick drum/ snare/ toms for a venue the size of a mobile home".

If the owners/customers tell you it is too loud, IT IS. Period.

The average person at the Tilted Kilt or Sports Bar isn't looking to get their ear drums blasted.

As bassists usually we are the ones who aren't heard but only felt because of this as well.

My people I did bring to gigs, told me it was too **** loud and didn't come again.
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Lack of volume control by live bands is - I think - a big part of the reason why bars and restaurants choose other more controllable alternatives. My band does it's best to play at a level where it's still live rock and roll but waitresses can take drink orders and people aren't in pain. Laugh at the extremism of that last statement but I literally left a bar recently because the band was painfully loud. The drummer needs some control over his sticks, a quieter kit, and some of that gummy stuff to keep his ride and crash under control, the guitar player needs a tight leash, and yes even we bass players need to keep it in check. There's a couple bands I know that aren't welcome back at certain venues because they played too loud after being asked in advance to manage their sound level. I don't know if they told the bands that, but the owners told me. There's enough talent out there that owners can just pay you and never have you back rather than giving painful feedback (pun intended).
 
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#249
ShadowImage said:
It sounds like you're trying to pin problems with gigs on bands you deam not to be good enough. Sorry, I don't buy that kind of compensating blame shifting. You can switch those nouns and it sounds just as rediculous. "Boxing isn't great anymore because of all the mediocre boxers" nope sorry, times change, the public changes. Don't shift your frustrations onto other bands.
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I'm not frustrated. I'm just sharing what I've seen across 30 years of playing and talking to many bar owners. If the musical scene sucks, why should a bar owner offer a venue for the suckage? Furthermore, with all the choices available for entertainment, why would anyone choose to go to a particular venue if the odds are they will hear a bad band (that is frequently too loud for the venue)? FWIW, my band is doing well gig wise (and no I'm not bragging) and I am always happy to see other bands do well. I want live music to thrive for the sake of every musician and culture. So I am not going to give a participation award to a mediocre band that empties out a bar and pisses off the owner. Heck, I've been in mediocre bands in my day and have no qualms about owning up to my share of the blame. I certainly hope the fact that we keep getting call-backs means I am doing some penance for the "sins" of my past.

"compensating blame shifting"... funny.
 
#251
Sure, there will always be some of those 'in your face' 130dBs of rockin' goodness bars, but the strong trend nowadays is for quieter venues, places where people can actually converse. This lends it self more to singer/songwriters who seem to be able to tailor their stage presence a lot easier to that type of crowd.
 
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#252
Bullitt5135 said:
Things I see around where I live:

– Venues book bands as an afterthought, hoping to extend their prime hours of business. They don't promote the bands, they don't provide the most basic of stage area, lighting or PA support (or god forbid, a sound engineer). They don't pay squat, so they eventually only attract subpar acts. The bands often drive away regular customers faster than they can build a following. Venue owners decide bands are bad for business and resort to DJs or iPod instead.

– Some venues do a better job vetting the talent. They rely heavily on local bands bringing a crowd, but they fail to realize that friends/family are not going to show up if the same band is playing every other week. They tend to overexpose the bands on their roster. They are extremely reluctant to book new talent -- they can't be bothered to return your call or email, or listen to your demo CD. They will never call you back. Ever. It's like they don't want to attract new customers. They do the bare minimum to promote (occasional social media). They may have a basic stage area, lighting and house PA (still no engineer). Bands earn $300-400 per night if they are lucky.

– The most vibrant part of the local scene relies on indie bands essentially playing for free (despite immense talent in some cases). It must be worthwhile to the venues, but the musicians are starving to death.

– "A-list" venues that ONLY book the same handful of tried and true R&B cover bands. No variety, no chance of getting your foot in the door even on an off-night.

Things venues do to shoot themselves in the foot:

– Crappy stage, PA and lighting. Awful sound, excessive volume, and musicians playing in the dark.

– Inconsistent cover charge designed to take advantage of the band by skimming and letting regulars in for free. Treating the bands as a mark instead of a business partner.

– Starting way too late. In my case, it's bar & grill places that want you to start at 9:30PM or later. Sorry, but my crowd is on bed by 10PM. If they do come out, we're talking 2 drinks max. Let us start at 8PM, and we'll fill your restaurant with 50+ people eating and drinking for a few hours.

– No promotion. Radio and print ads are non-existent. Places use Facebook and Twitter to routinely promote their $7.99 shrimp special, but they can't be bothered to post/share the promo you sent them. I also started putting up posters myself in the venues because I couldn't trust that the managers would do it. How are they going to draw a crowd for live music of the public doesn't hear about it?

– Continuing to book the same tired bands that are bad for business. PLEASE, take a few minutes and vet the talent properly. Make an effort to see them play in person if possible. Hire good bands and pay them a fair price. Get rid of acts that fail to draw or routinely clear the room. Just because they only charge $50 doesn't mean they are good for business. If you are going to book live music, don't be half-a**ed about it.
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Same area, same observation... I do play in a band that does pretty a pretty good job of playing a huge variety and play to the venue and crowd, country to modern rock and everything in between. That and the fact we are the youngest band gigging regularly in terms of age (30's) in our area, which the crowds at the places like because we are different. So we do get some of those higher 450+ plus gigs, but those are in the minority around here, we can play 300/night places which we could book 8x a month, but will only do one of those occasionally because we want 100 each and we are a 4 piece....

Now I do see a huge demand currently and in the future for acoustic duos/trios(which we do also) for all the small breweries and micro beer places... the hipsters enjoy a little background music while drinking their IPA's (I like craft beer myself) but those places only pay 150-200 a night. I see that as the future around here which is ok to me, less gear, and earlier gigs. One of the reasons I took up the upright 6 months ago....
 
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#256
A club owner told us years ago that if we wanted a larger following or pack a club with patrons then ''all we'd need is 2-3 smoking hot chicks that can sing and work a crowd regardless of the venue and they will come. He might have been right then and he maybe right today probably with a good backing band and some advertising-who knows when it comes to r&b music and people these days but definitely not enough r&b venues around here. (3) hot chicks? I'm thinking serious now about what he said then.
 
#257
The best I can tell you is, risk all of your money on the purchase or lease of a property, buying a liquor license, city permits, attend to the accounting, maintenance, hiring and management of employees, and then you can have a venue just the way you want it. I've played under horrendous conditions, the description of which would be a whole other rant, and I've never bellyached because I understand NOTHING IS FOR FREE. Wanna change people's minds? Advertise, engage in social media, put up some flyers, start a trend. The scene is the way it is for a reason, understand those reasons and take action to make a change. If you can't or won't do that, noone is going to do it for you. No disrespect intended to my brothers and sisters of the bottom end.
 

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