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Are Local Venues Killing Music?

#61
Beyond audience shift theres also something deeper and more fundamental taking shape.

Reading some threads here, it appears you also have a substantial number of the up and coming generations that dislike F2F interaction so much they actually freak out if somebody tries to contact them by phone.

People who 'cocoon' and 'silo' off their lives from the physical world aren't the types to go out and mingle with other people in order to get their entertainment.
 
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#61
socialleper said:
That's a pithy little line, but what does that really even mean? I live in Los Angeles; no additional advertising needed. You can't promote something that is already known world wide. The problem is the local venues aren't keeping up with the reputation. Things are changing, and places with DJs are doing well, very well, but their venues are a lot nicer to start off with. Beyond the music, the place is a location you actually want to be in. If the venues don't want to update their amenities so they don't look like the late 70s and early 80s threw up in them, there isn't much I as a band can do.

What I'm saying is it seems like a spiraling catch 22. The venues are dingy because they don't have money for upkeep. Because they are dumps no one wants to go to them, so attendance is low. Its a business right? Doesn't any business that wants to attract customers need to project its self as a place people want to be by being clean, safe and efficiently run?
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Did you ever stop and think that it is cause and effect? You stated in your middle paragraph in this post that the places that run DJs are doing "very well" and that they are nicer places. Did it even once cross your mind that the DJ bars started doing well because of the DJs and then they could afford to spruce the place up a bit? Did it ever once cross your mind that the live music bars didn't do so well and "keep up with the times" because live music doesn't draw like it used to.....thereby making it where the bar owners can't afford to redecorate, or hire great staff, or fix the bathrooms up? Did it ever once occur to you that the best bar tenders moved over to the DJ clubs because the tips might be better?

I'm not saying I know for sure. I don't. But you don't even seem to be allowing for the possibility that the problem is that the audience shifted rather than the bar owners beings stupid and cheap.

Here in my market (admittedly much smaller) two live venues went crazy with remodeling. One country bar and one sports/pop/rock bar spent thousands and thousands on literally knocking out wall and opening up dance floors. the lighting in both venues is spectacular. Hard floors in most areas that are easy to clean. Bright enough to see but still dark enough to be a bar. Clean. Great house systems for DJ music and nice stages.

The country bar is still open because the guy who owns it is rich and it's a hobby for him. They have tried everything to draw a regular big crowd and nothing has worked. Good bands and local bands with followings still play there. Young acts from Nashville play there. And yet you rarely see over 100 people there. The guy has to be losing money.

The other bar is owned by a guy I have known for years. He loves live music. He does everything he can to make live music work. But it just doesn't draw and doesn't make him a profit. He makes just as much or more without a band as he does with one. If you book a show there, or several shows there months out, know this. About every 6 months he throws a fit (usually about mid day Sunday when tallying everything up from the previous day) and calls all the bands to clear the schedule and cancel all live music. A few months later he calls and apologizes and tries to book up again. I have talked to him at great length. He hates that a basketball playoff game on the big screen nets him hundreds more a night than any live band he has.

Finishing this up (sorry for the long post). Both nice places. Both hire the best bands they can. Both love live music. One losing his a$$ and the other switching over to sports and DJs twice a year. Your story and mine are both true but both anecdotal and don't speak to the entire country. But they also tell an underlying story that I don't think most musicians will admit. Rocking the crap put of "Can't Get Enough of Your Love" in a black Ampeg T-shirt and shorts or tennis shoes doesn't get it done anymore. You have to be special and profitable to the bar. And just showing up and playing country or classic rock doesn't get that done in most places. Dress the part. Be drama free. SELL THINGS FOR THE BAR. ENGAGE the audience on a personal level.

I have said this my whole adult life. No matter what job you THINK you do, we are all in SALES. Don't fight it. Own it. What's the point of original music if it doesn't SELL? What's the point of honing your craft to play music if your band doesn't SELL? Joy you say? Fun you say? It's not a bar owner's job to bring you joy and fun. You can find joy and fun in your garage. As long as you can mix SALES into your joy and fun at the bar you will do fine. Simply being joyful and talented in front of people isn't why you are there.

What's the point of owning a bar if the alcohol doesn't SELL?

In many cases, it's not the bar owner's problem.
 
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#62
40Hz said:
Reading some threads here, it appears you also have enough a substantial number of the up and coming generation that dislikes F2F interaction so much they freak out if somebody tries to contact them by phone.

People who 'cocoon' and 'silo' off their lives from the physical world aren't the types to go out and mingle with other people in order to get their entertainment.
Click to expand...

Nor are they the kinds of people who should go into the live music business. Just sayin'. :thumbsup:
 
#64
I'm pretty lucky in the fact that I live fairly close to a really great bar that hosts local bands and small groups. It is a dive bar but not the offensive sensory onslaught type. They lean more to the metal/punk side of things, but a bluegrass or country group can play anywhere around here. The bill is always full and there is always something interesting going on. They are fair with the performers and working with everyone to put on a great show. Plus, they don't try to pay the rent off of 1 drink. Great venues that support small original bands are still out there but they are getting harder to find.
 
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#66
My area has a decent scene, not great but not horrible either, its been fairly flat/same both pay and quality wise for several years. There are a handful of higher end Yacht Club and Casino type gigs that pay well, but those gigs are difficult to get. One problem I see is that many bands are playing the same old classic rock tunes that they and everyone else has been playing for years. We have gotten gigs simply because the club owner stated none of the other bands are playing danceable music. The mid-west is an interesting mix, Big Cities....but drive 20-30 min and your in rural farm communities.
 
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#68
Every time this topic comes up, there are a bunch of people who want to tell the owners what to do. I doubt many of them have ever run an establishment. These places have to make mnnney - they are not there to facilitate your/my hobby.

There are two basic places that have live music:

Bar/restaurant:

- has to take space that otherwise is there to help make money (tables, pool tables);
- live music interrupts the people not there for the music, and they have to serve around you;
- they have to pay you;
- most patrons want music they know - there are fees to pay.

Unless having you there will increase their profit, there is no reason to book your band

Dedicated music venues. Unless you can draw enough people who will buy tickets to cover their rent, insurance, payroll, etc., there is no reason to book you. The Stones are not still touring because they are still world class musicians. They can be paid their take, and the fans will buy the expensive tickets, beer and merch, so everyone makes lots of money.
 
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#69
Anybody ever been to the Village Vanguard? Where some of the greatest musicians on Earth share space with dust bunnies?

I play in a band that plays the hits. It's not a great band, but it's pretty good. We work a lot, and we get paid more--sometimes twice as much--as other bands working in our market. Club owners love it. What is the band's secret? We have a following. That's it, really. It has very little to do with the condition of the rooms we play in. We understand that our job is to get the crowd moving and sell booze. All those chestnuts that everyone makes fun of? I make fun of them, too. But I play them all the time, because the job is to play what people want to hear, not all our favorite songs. As the tag says: I'm not an artist, I'm in the service business.

If your goal is self-expression through music, that's great. I've taken a swing at musical self-expression from time to time, and you know what? I don't have what it takes. It's got nothing to do with whether anybody vacuums the floor at the venue. I'd rather play Whole Lotta Love in front of a large, enthusiastic crowd for decent money than play my own stuff in front of five people for five cents.

Of course, on my own time I go to jazz clubs. :D
 
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#70
While I am on my soapbox - no one wants to play Mustang Sally, etc.

What do people request? Mustang Sally etc. (Songs they know).
What do djs play? Mustang Sally etc. (Song they know)

You are there to entertain the patrons, not yourself. You want to play just the music you want? Stay home and play. I have a band that does that - rare gigs, killer music, killer musicians.
 
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#71
Here in the Ohio Valley we are still pretty lucky to have some decent venues. The problem is they're dwindling. What few venues survive, mainly want party bands. So you either adapt, or play in some coffeehouse for 2 1/2 people. The diversity of musical styles are definitely diminishing. I'm blessed to be in a couple sought after bands. Booking is pretty easy for us. Both bands are booked into November of 2017 already. But, it's a constant uphill battle for gigs,pay,etc.
 
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#72
My area was very hot for original music in the 70's and 80's with many national bands coming from here. I was lucky enough to of caught the tail end of that scene and it was a blast.
We had music in bars and clubs from the groove rooms at the Holiday inns to the corner pubs. People could catch good bands 5-6 days a week and most of the time to packed rooms. Today its a shell of its former self.
The one thing that carried CBGB and our town was there was a scene with the music...not just the music itself. Even with Disco there was a scene, even if you looked cool and didn't dance much.

The last "scene" in my area was the 90's "Urban cowboy" which got country bands and clubs hoppin and music flowed. Since then its dead. Most bars can't get enough customer's to pay their staff let alone , paint, carpet and promotion for local bands. The smoking ban and higher DUI patrols also helped to really kill the bar business in my area.

Owning a bar is a tuff business and booking Jonny Hotlips and the Snot this Friday is not (in most cases) going to bust the walls with folks coming out to see them. The owner will not have enough in the till to pay them much if at all.
Its a delicate balance but I do agree with the OP the venues are helping to kill the scene. Most will not improve their environments enough to draw folks in. Once a bar is called a dive bar its hard to escape that label.
Most venues expect you to bring folks out with the band but don't even have a sign saying there is a band or live music that night. Most venues here wont use the free local entertainment sections of the newspaper or even put a post on facebook.

The OP had a great point when they asked," When was the last time we Tb'ers were in a bar or venue to just eat or drink and not see a band?
For me that would be a long time. I'm not a go to a bar and just drink kind of guy. I drink at home and only go out to see bands or play myself...just went out last week with the wife to see a buddies band.

But there is always hope for change. Believe it or not "Bro Country like I'm playing now has increased the opportunity to play and get paid in my area. There is not allot of it but its there.
We have had a few great clubs close in the past years but wine and craft beer bars have spring up and most offer some live music. Will you get paid much? Maybe? Maybe not, but its at least some good change and hopefully there will be more.
 
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#74
Times have definitely changed. The bar scene has changed. What people will come to hear has changed. As musicians we have to adapt. Someone mentioned sales in a post. That is dead nuts on. The onus of promotion in your area has fallen on the entertainer more so now than the venue. I'm not so sure that the market is as buyer friendly for live music as it was decades ago. Many establishments have gotten away from relying on live entertainment to promote their business and onto other ways of doing it (most craft beer taps in the city! Most big screen TVs! etc).

I have also fallen into the habit of not supporting other local musicians by not going out to see bands play live (other than friends' bands). My 2017 NY resolution was to do a little course correction on that and go out and experience more to help support this. Its tougher for me with kids, family, day job... But I'm gunning to see a local band/musician that I'm not familiar with play live somewhere once a month this year.

I have also seen a bit of a renaissance recently of musician friendly bar owners. These may not be big venues, and there may not be a lot of them, but I'm made friends with a couple of bar owners who really are trying to promote local music as the main attraction of their business. Some are willing and able to pay more than others. But they all are receptive to musicians inputs and ideas as to what it takes to make their place a go as a vibrant music scene. Music is really just a hobby for me (albeit one that consumes a lot of my drive and time), but I am hopeful that things will cycle back around and it becomes a more friendly local scene (everywhere) for bands in the future.
 
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#77
SteveC said:
Live music is dying. Plain and simple. If there's music it's DJ.
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As someone who plays a lot of small shows and knows a lot more people playing/working in small venues, this is the thing: DJs (and really, mp3Js) are killing the market for casual music nights. There's definitely still plenty of demand for people to see bands that they are actively interested in, but I think the days of venues having live bands as basic entertainment for bar/dinner customers are just about over. At least, in terms of your middle of the road rock-ish bands -- I could see jazz and acoustic music hanging on awhile longer.
 
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#79
hrodbert696 said:
Kinda, but kinda not.

The bar business, from what I understand, is pretty high-risk. IIRC something like half of them go out of business within just their first year or two. You can make a killing in them if you strike gold and become the hip place in town where everyone wants to go; but otherwise you're scraping by on a poor margin or bleeding money.

When it comes to having a band, or not, it's a pretty straightforward calculation; will having a band mean I make more money than I would have made if I didn't have the band? If just as many people come and drink just as much and I don't have to fork over $500 to musicians, then I'm $500 more in the black. Having music makes sense only if it means more money in the till than I pay the musicians.

The reason CBGB's worked was because the owner was open minded to allowing the kids to introduce
and play a new form of music, that other kids could appreciate and identify with, even though in most
cases they were not talented musicians. It was originally a Country music venue, CBGB's stood for
Country, Blue Grass, Blues which in NYC maybe wasn't a very popular choice of entertainment. So
he encouraged the punk movement by default...and yes you would definitely have caught something if you used the bathrooms there.

So my pov is that it had little to do with the location but rather a movement, and an art form if you will,
that allowed the audience to share the angst of the performer, which they of course identified with.
Today is a much different scenario, people are broke (not that we weren't, but things costed significantly
less then) they have to choose where, when and how they are going to spend what little discretionary
income they have (a few drinks will run you $50 here in NY!), so they as well as everyone else would
rather spend at a place they really want to go to. They price is generally deemed to be not worth the experience or the atmosphere is lacking. That's why live music dive bars do not do well, and gigs that
used to be commonplace are difficult to come across....we can bitch about it all we want...but really
it all comes down to a poor economy, and a younger generation that in general cannot relate to live
entertainment as a valuable product to spend discretionary income on.

Depending on where you are, there's going to be a kind of ecosystem, where the population and demographics of the area are only going to be able to support a limited number of prime-quality clubs that can afford to really support live music. Then you'll have a string of second-tier places that barely scrape by but maybe the owners like having bands so they have them in anyway, and then desperate dives that probably won't last long but hey, maybe if we get a band in here it will bring in some customers. Bands have fans, right?

I had my eyes opened about this when I was reading about the early days of American punk. CBGB's, the legendary CBGB's, was actually EXACTLY the kind of ****hole that you describe as to blame for killing live music - but it was ground zero for American punk, and later New Wave (Blondie and the Talking Heads came out of its scene). The other thing that really impressed me was how FEW venues those bands had to play in - CBGB's, Max's, and maybe two or three other places - in NEW YORK CITY. That gives me a bit of a perspective when I feel like there aren't enough venues for bands in little ole Manchester NH.
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#80
The OP essentially sounds like the ramblings of a grumpy old fart. "Back in my day..." :roflmao:

There are so many factors that go into show attendance.
I think it's important to discern whether we're talking about venues killing music in respect to cover bands, or originals.
That will always make a difference in regards to attendance. Regardless of where the show is held.

socialleper said:
And how do they treat their live bands? Well, again, no parking. If you if leave your gear in the car it is totally going to get stolen. Loading in is through the small front door everyone is standing in front of. (Don't worry miss; go ahead and block my way while I drag gear that weighs more than you do, around you.) Stairs? Awesome! Is that a stage or two pallets you stacked on top of each other in the corner and painted black? They do such a great job advertising that the only people in there are the people I brought to the show. And for all the hard work they did, obviously they don't need to share the door or bar take with me; a solo cup half filled with Bud Light will pay for my gas and time.
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That's just the way it goes, the way it always has been, and likely the way it will always be.
If you don't like playing at clubs of that nature, don't, plain and simple.
Some of us don't mind and play for the love of music, not ourselves.


socialleper said:
Local venues seem to put zero effort into their appearance or amenities, then complain they aren't making any money. No duh; your venue is unattractive, has no vibe, and is a pain in the backside for customers and bands alike. If these small venues are the birth places of up and coming musicians, and are apathetically slumming their ways towards insolvency, where will the next generation of musicians go to cut their teeth? Where will young men or women go to catch the music bug? Will people want to go live it up at a place that throbs with the aura of necrotizing dreams?
It feels to me like a little paint, a mop, and maybe some working urinals could go a long way to rejuvenate local music scenes. Am I wrong? Am I taking crazy pills here?
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Maybe it's different for people in "underground" music, counter-culture style.
But, at 41, I'll still play a basement, a DIY venue, anarchist bookstore, or the shady-est dive bar in town.
Why? Because I grew up in a punk rock/underground music scene, and more than anything, I just wanna keep playing.
I personally will play anywhere, anytime, for little to no money.

ARS GRATIA ARTIS



 
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