Are Local Venues Killing Music?

[Thumb n Fingers]

And there's the writing on the wall. Old people die. But before they do, the stop going to clubs to see live music. i.e. that is a rapidly shrinking crowd.

Same thing is happening to live music venues. It is, more and more, becoming quality over quantity. And it's not just that the clubs are crappy. So are the bands. It's one reason I'm only in my southern gospel band right now that only plays churches and festivals. I'm sick and tired of trying to work with people that only want to be "good enough". I want to be so good, as a band, that people stop talking to each other just to watch us play. There are just too few musicians in my neck of the woods that want to do that.

There is a college in my small town that specializes in music degrees. I'm thinking of puting together a band that continues to burn through students as they come and go. At least they are more motivated.

Not a bad system... My college years were used up by a band that did just that. The guitarist and drummer were in their 40s and recruited bassists, keyboardists, and whatever else they could from the local U. They had been going strong for 15 years when I joined (almost 30 years ago now). It was actually pretty cool, as everyone was musically educated and could talk the same language so to speak. We could play just about any venue as we covered just about every genre of music... blues one night, jazz another, classic rock covers another night, pop on another night, reggae gigs, etc... It was developmentally quite good for me and an absolute blast in that the music never got stale.

 

[socialleper]

The Internet.

Elaborate. The internet is kinda big.

 

[Korladis]

I think we are just all getting old! Im in Los Angeles which is a mecca for live shows, there are alot of venues and every band stops here at some point. It still takes alot for me to see a show, even bands I love because..

1 I have to be not working that night
2 I like to have a drink or 3 at the show but not drive (Uber is cool) and
3 Im not a spring chicken anymore, dont have the ambition to leave the house so often

With that said I do think there has been a quiet revolution of sorts happening in the music scene. Pirating came along and kicked the industry right in the nuts so what your left with are bands making music again for the right reasons.
There is no real get rich quick dream in sight for the majority so I think they are really doing things for themselves at this point. I love finding a new young band that I really dig and see them doing the blue collar band thing driving themselves across the country and grinding it out.

Gives me hope.

Eh, my band's only SoCal show is still one that was in the middle of the Mojave Desert. And we've toured. No plans to play LA yet.

True though that no one is harboring any illusions that this is going to make us rich. Even the people in our genre who are considered legends have day jobs.

What qualifies as "exciting stuff" for younger folks when it comes to live bands?

A few years back I went to an upscale bar that had a live band different from most. Female-fronted with guitar/bass/drums and the guitar player had a midi for doing keyboard and synth stuff. They played modern pop, R&B, new wave and old disco - Beyoncé, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, Madonna, Donna Summer, that sort of thing. They were really good, but there were maybe 10 patrons in the bar, and four of us got up and danced including my date and I (couldn't say no...). To this day I have not seen another bar-type band pull that stuff off. Like you said it is mostly a classic rock/blues/country world when it comes to live bands.

Bands playing their own stuff, I'm guessing, is what he probably means.

From what I've noticed, my generation will go see shows... but they're not into cover bands. Which is what a lot of people on TB are in, and in turn I think that's why there's a lot more talk on TB about "death of live music" than my real life experience really seems to support.

So here is the question:
If local clubs and bars are no longer financially viable, and that is the market trend, OK.
Where is the next breeding ground for live bands to play their original music? That's not a snarky question, it is a legit one. Let's say this method of "getting out there" is a DoDo bird, what can be the next thing to replace it? If we as musicians don't think of a way to adapt to this, we are truly screwed. Streaming and piracy only hurts bands with produced materials. For those of us still working the local scene to get the money together to produce something that can then be stolen, we still need an outlet. What will that be?

I've been wondering if there isn't a way to turn this around and use people's growing use of the internet as an asset. It would take a significant amount of investment, but if a location set up a studio with cameras, mics, a decent mixing board and a fat internet connection you could live stream performances. Sounds weird, but think about it: my band has fans well outside our local touring radius, and I'm sure we aren't the only ones. Unless I win the lottery, the handful of people in Europe that like us will never see us play live, which kinda sucks for both of us. What I'm taking about is a less naked version of a "live webcam" (unless playing naked is your thing) where a band plays while people watch real time on the web and can react to it. Could that be a thing?

Like I said. DIY shows.

In the early days, Catapult played Eli's a bunch of times and also played house parties (though one of the places with the parties had shows there so regularly that they even booked touring bands). Played in the living room, merch sold in the breakfast room.

And there's the writing on the wall. Old people die. But before they do, the stop going to clubs to see live music. i.e. that is a rapidly shrinking crowd.

When I was a kid, you could go to these hobby stores that had AMAZING slot car racing tracks. You'd pay by the hour to race your car. Those places still exist, but they are very rare. That sort of thing has really run it's course.

Same thing is happening to live music venues. It is, more and more, becoming quality over quantity. And it's not just that the clubs are crappy. So are the bands. It's one reason I'm only in my southern gospel band right now that only plays churches and festivals. I'm sick and tired of trying to work with people that only want to be "good enough". I want to be so good, as a band, that people stop talking to each other just to watch us play. There are just too few musicians in my neck of the woods that want to do that.

There is a college in my small town that specializes in music degrees. I'm thinking of puting together a band that continues to burn through students as they come and go. At least they are more motivated.

I don't think the audience for live music is shrinking nearly as much as TB folks think. I do think that it might be shifting away from the kind of live music that lots of TB members play, however.

In my experience, generally when the bands are on, it's too loud to talk inside the venue. At least to really hold a conversation. So if you're there, you really are there to see the bands.

 

[Biggbass]

nothing related to the cleanliness of a bar has changed since the days of the spittoon

 

[Tony CC]

I don't go out that often unless I'm playing, but when I do, I always go somewhere with a live band.

I don't think local venues are killing music. I live in a small city of about 200,000 and there is no shortage of work, especially for a Bass player. Bars come and go, but there are always places to play regardless of genre. Nowadays, with the internet and everything else we have at our disposal, it is so much easier to get people listening and sharing music and advertising gigs. So much more efficient and effective than running around trying to post flyers everywhere.

The local scene belongs to everyone involved and bands carry as much, or more of the responsibility for its success than club owners. If you ask them, they will probably tell you that there are some bands in town that actually hurt their business. I do think that occasionally, we as musicians, need to look in the mirror and have a realistic look at what we are trying to accomplish. Are we playing for ourselves, or do we want to provide entertainment for the people out spending their hard earned money. The majority of people going out are not musicians, so we have to understand that our musical tastes and our originals, if they are any good in the first place, are probably not that interesting to most people.

I spent the bulk of my younger years (20s) playing only progressive rock originals, refusing to do covers. That was hard work trying to gain and maintain any kind of following. It was also extremely self-aggrandizing. If we as musicians are doing something interesting, people will come and watch and listen. Maybe even look up from their phones. If we have to convince people to come out, or guilt anyone into supporting the scene, we are probably doing something wrong somewhere or missing the point. Music is as old as humanity and will never die. A dirty hole in the wall bar, certainly will not kill it. But it is continually evolving.

I play in a jazz/pop band now doing originals and covers. Us old guys in the band like playing standards with everyone soloing for 3 choruses. That works fine at some venues, but we also recognize the need to work in some new and popular covers. We just jazz them up a bit, similar to a 'Post-modern Jukebox' type of thing and people love it.

My advice to myself is to always remember that I am there to provide entertainment for someone else. As a result, I am having more fun now in my 40s playing bass than I ever have in the past. I still push my originals, but I just have to understand that instrumental fusion is not something that can be jammed down everyone's throat for 3 hours a night.

Just my perspective from the small local scene I play in.

 

[Korladis]

I'm really not talking about concerts. I'm talking about Bars. When I go to concerts, I take a date.

They're one and the same. Where do you think shows usually are? If you're on a date, or if you're trying to flirt with someone, a show is just not the right place to do that, as it'll probably be too loud. And if it isn't, you're probably yelling over a quiet part in the song and so everyone around you wants to punch you in the face.

 

[japhy4529]

I've played venues, which were visited by BMI representatives, who shake down the club/restaurant to pay an annual fee to cover artists royalties. It was about $400-$500 in NY. We ended up splitting the fee with the venue owner just for the privilege to reproduce copyrighted material. BMI threatened to sue if we continued to play without paying. Sure its a rip off and I wonder how much money Stevie Wonder received from our BMI "friend"?

It's not your responsibility to pay the royalty fees to BMI (or ASCAP or SESAC), it's the venue owner's. I've included relevant text from BMI and ASCAP, below. Emphasis is mine.

From the BMI site:

If musicians are playing live music, aren't they responsible for public performance fees?

Since it's the business or organization that's benefiting from the performance of music, management is responsible for ensuring that the organization is properly licensed. This responsibility cannot be passed on to anyone else even if the musicians hired are independent contractors.

From the Invalid Link Removed site:

Why is the venue responsible for paying ASCAP fees? Shouldn't a musician, entertainer or DJ be responsible for obtaining permission?

• Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music, or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.
  

 

[socialleper]

I want to touch on the drinking age thing for a moment:
In CA the drinking age as been 21 since Prohibition, so that isn't a factor here. Plus, I went to A LOT of shows long before I was 21. Played a few too. I can't speak for other areas, but LA has always been pretty accommodating to younger audiences. If you don't have ID, you don't get a bar stamp. Done.

DUI:
I can't see this being an issue either. Uber? Lyft? Since LA isn't a town with good public transport or available cabs, these two things are the neatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[HamOnTheCob]

I wrote a long rant, but I thought better of it.

Yes, local venue owners are killing music.

 

[Kevorargh]

The changes I've seen have to do primarily with what a number of people have said before - the changing tastes of the audience. I'm in Bethel, Maine, and that is ski country, and that means that the venues are chock full until about 9 pm and then everyone goes home so they get up and ski early. I do notice that people don't want to hear loud rock and roll bands anymore - the idea of someone bringing in a 4x12 Marshall stack is laughable these days. A lot of the local places, if they do live music at all, do solo acoustic acts. Portland, ME is different, it has a pretty vibrant scene, and I think a lot of younger people are out listening to all kinds of music. Bethel is the boonies, and it's hard to get out because you have to drive a good 10 minutes to get anywhere. If it's below zero, I'm happy to stay at home.

As for smoking bans, I have not seen any impact at all. People are going to drink, and if they have to smoke outside in the freezing cold so they can drink a few beers, they will. I think the family crowd has more than made up for it if there has been a dip in attendance. I see older and younger people come out. I was at Hoot Nite last night, and the place was rocking with old and young people dancing to what we were playing - country and blues, and a bit of rock. Successful bands around here are the ones that get people on their feet and dancing, or, in smaller venues, compel people to listen with good song choices (not necessarily Mustang Sally or Sweet Home Alabama). And the places I play aren't super swanky. I'm happy to play Mustang Sally or any of those songs as long as it rocks and grooves hard and people are into it - cuz that's what live playing is all about.

 

[pcake]

So here is the question:
If local clubs and bars are no longer financially viable, and that is the market trend, OK.
Where is the next breeding ground for live bands to play their original music? That's not a snarky question, it is a legit one. Let's say this method of "getting out there" is a DoDo bird, what can be the next thing to replace it? If we as musicians don't think of a way to adapt to this, we are truly screwed. Streaming and piracy only hurts bands with produced materials. For those of us still working the local scene to get the money together to produce something that can then be stolen, we still need an outlet. What will that be?

I've been wondering if there isn't a way to turn this around and use people's growing use of the internet as an asset. It would take a significant amount of investment, but if a location set up a studio with cameras, mics, a decent mixing board and a fat internet connection you could live stream performances. Sounds weird, but think about it: my band has fans well outside our local touring radius, and I'm sure we aren't the only ones. Unless I win the lottery, the handful of people in Europe that like us will never see us play live, which kinda sucks for both of us. What I'm taking about is a less naked version of a "live webcam" (unless playing naked is your thing) where a band plays while people watch real time on the web and can react to it. Could that be a thing?

local clubs haven't been particularly financially stable for years. that doesn't mean we don't play there - it's fun to play for people. but we can do other things, too. youtube is an amazing resource if you know how to use it as is twitter and other social media. don't just market your band - create a community around it. that means better turnout as people will have better band loyaltay, and will tell each other about your shows and releases. get to recognize your fans faces, talk to them.

and you can rent a club, hall or theater with a liquor license and have your own shows. bring in complementary bands to play on your night and bring in their fans and share the profits. put your music on streaming services so new ears will find you. talk to local newspapers and mags about your band, not just the music but with an eye to really interesting people.

as far as real time streaming shows, it could be done - and if it were well done and the band were popular, it could be done for a fee. for that matter, a live band streaming site could offer subscriptions. (and now i'm giving away my ideas). the problem is you won't hear applause, you won't hear requests, your audience can't react as well with each other. you could include live chat. it's doable, but i like doing live shows, too.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

Ultimately though, while I think that the music scene is completely dead for anyone over 40 (again, generally speaking), to me it seems quite a few of the kids of today are playing in bands and trying to follow the dreams we all did back in the 70's, 80's and 90's. It's just way, way harder for them due to negative societal inertia.

I must be living on another planet. The demographic at our gigs is about 25 to 65. And people absolutely *will* come out if they know they're going to have a pleasant experience. Being part of a crowd on a dance floor in front of a live band playing music you like (and that isn't blasting you with volume) is an experience that a lot of people seem to want to have, and are even willing to pay a modest cover charge to have it.

 

[Korladis]

What is scary to me is that I've played a few places up there and a lot down here in LA. Places Like Eli's aren't that far off the pace in terms of size and amenities. I mean, it Oakland....so....there is that, but they are dedicated to their scene. Down here there are some clubs that are only 10 years old and are attracting big signed bands, but aren't that much bigger or, for lack of a better word, attractive.

Sleep and Pallbearer have both played Eli's within the last few years (before the remodel, when the urinal was still that disgusting trough thing, although it was a secret show in Sleep's case). I've seen Graves at Sea and SubRosa at Golden Bull (the staircase leads to a room for touring bands, which has a private bathroom).

Eli's is also I think trying to hold onto their sort of... I don't know, authenticity? Like Golden Bull, they want to be both a place you can go just to hang out and have drinks, and also a place where good bands play. Seriously Eli's used to be the kind of hell pit that one thought only existed in the Blues Brothers, though. Very pleased with the remodeling there.

The Oakland scene is kinda... intense. It's not huge, but a lot of the people in it are ferociously dedicated to it.

 

[MNAirHead]

Hmm..

I think that if you're smart there are a ton more options.

I've noticed that venues have changed... IF you're loud and big... those days are gone.

If you're smart and understand you're part of the cloud of entertainment, there are tons of opportunities.

Full bands -- yes that ship has passed.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

Phoenix has plenty of dives, but also has a few really good venues... I manage to play jazz for pay 4 -5 nights a week.

 

[KickingBass]

View attachment 1029309 Wow. Been there, done that. Glad that I'm living in South Texas now and get to play in places like this.

Where is this, may I ask?

 

[Korladis]

I must be living on another planet. The demographic at our gigs is about 25 to 65. And people absolutely *will* come out if they know they're going to have a pleasant experience. Being part of a crowd on a dance floor in front of a live band playing music you like (and that isn't blasting you with volume) is an experience that a lot of people seem to want to have, and are even willing to pay a modest cover charge to have it.

Where I am, people come out specifically to get blasted with volume.

I think that may be part of why doom metal is popular. It's a visceral experience that you just can't really get without going to a show.

 

[bassliner50]

It's not your responsibility to pay the royalty fees to BMI (or ASCAP or SESAC), it's the venue owner's. I've included relevant text from BMI and ASCAP, below. Emphasis is mine.

From the BMI site:

If musicians are playing live music, aren't they responsible for public performance fees?

Since it's the business or organization that's benefiting from the performance of music, management is responsible for ensuring that the organization is properly licensed. This responsibility cannot be passed on to anyone else even if the musicians hired are independent contractors.

From the Invalid Link Removed site:

Why is the venue responsible for paying ASCAP fees? Shouldn't a musician, entertainer or DJ be responsible for obtaining permission?

• Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music, or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.

...And if the venue owner refuses to pay, we negotiated a you pay half we will pay half deal which he accepted. It allowed us a steady gig as the house band. These fees are not so palatable to venue owners who struggle to make the business work.

 

[MGR]

I must be living on another planet. The demographic at our gigs is about 25 to 65. And people absolutely *will* come out if they know they're going to have a pleasant experience. Being part of a crowd on a dance floor in front of a live band playing music you like (and that isn't blasting you with volume) is an experience that a lot of people seem to want to have, and are even willing to pay a modest cover charge to have it.

Glad to hear it. That's why I put the qualifier "generally speaking" when I wrote my original post.

 

[Chris 'Wighat' Jordan]

I have never heard so much whining! Nobody is killing anything. DJ's are taking over? I think someone said that in 1976. Dirty carpet? Cocaine? Other musicians' fault? Drinking age has risen? People don't drink as much? LOL. All nonsense. If you're not getting gigs, the reason can be found within.