Are Local Venues Killing Music?

[DirtDog]

I think there's a few things a play here.

1. Demographics - in Canada, and probably the US as well, in the 1980's 1 in 3 people were aged 19-34; by the 2000's that number was 1 in 5.

2. Structural changes - DUI, anti-smoking laws

3. Market changes - rise of internet/mobile, EDM vs. rock music, fragmentation of entertainment choices.

I think these three things happening all around the same time (early 2000s) created a perfect storm for demise of live music. Like someone posited earlier, the momentum was disrupted and, IMO, really has not recovered.

 

[Korladis]

I think there's a few things a play here.

1. Demographics - in Canada, and probably the US as well, in the 1980's 1 in 3 people were aged 19-34; by the 2000's that number was 1 in 5.

2. Structural changes - DUI, anti-smoking laws

3. Market changes - rise of internet/mobile, EDM vs. rock music, fragmentation of entertainment choices.

I think these three things happening all around the same time (early 2000s) created a perfect storm for demise of live music. Like someone posited earlier, the momentum was disrupted and, IMO, really has not recovered.

I honestly don't think anti-smoking laws have been a big deal. At least not here. Probably just as many people more willing to come out as people who stay home, due to them.

Fragmentation of entertainment choices, sure. Though EDM is nothing new. It's just the newest variation of disco and other stuff that's been dominating dance clubs for decades.

There are still plenty of people who want to go out and see a rock band. However, they might not be the bands that TBers are in.

 

[HassBacker]

Government and law enforcement around these parts contribute mightily to the problem as well. It's a vicious circle. The Province and City Hall are all for cracking down on DUI, but make it nearly impossible for clubs to open and survive by taxing and licensing the crap out of them on top of their leases, staff wages and all the other things they need to pay for day to day. It also doesn't help that here, blowing 0.05 in a checkstop will get your car impounded and you a 24 hour driving suspension. There are only a few areas in town here where it's actually possible to walk between clubs that have bands. Otherwise, you're driving as transit is crap here; no one is waiting for the bus or the train in -20C after midnight unless they have no choice. A 40 minute taxi or Uber ride isn't the answer for most either, this town is geographically huge.
There are a couple of clubs in my neighbourhood that I could walk to. They don't feature bands. I'm not interested in watching sports in a bar. I'm not interested in DJ's. I don't frequent these bars . I know lots of folks barely getting by trying to follow their craft as musicians. I frequent the bars that hire them and take my chances with the DUI.

 

[moonbass-de]

If having live music meant increased income, the venues would support it.

- higher drinking age (and stricter enforcement) took away a lot of the market (no high schoolers and college kids packing the bars)
- stricter enforcement of more stringent dwi ( when I was in college, it was .15, and it was rare for someone to get arrested unless there was an accident)
- no smoking (I used to have a set of clothes and jacket just for gigs, since you could never get the stink out)
- with phones, more people are creating their own entertainment. Getting a driver's license is not the big rite of passage it used to be for many.
- less band-friendly pop music

You nailed it!!!

 

[LowActionHero]

The last 2 places we played flat told us they don't usually have bands anymore specifically because paying a band on what turns out to be a slow night was really hard on them. (and licensing fees)
The second place had a new stage and a NICE PA setup with subs. They went to DJs because it's cheaper and the sound is more consistent. We told the owner if he wanted us back we'd take the hit with him if it's a slow night. (he said he used to pay bands $500 a night, I live a half mile away, so I'd take a lil gas money and a couple free drinks. But don't tell them that.. .)
a percentage agreement would work fine there.

 

[DirtDog]

There are still plenty of people who want to go out and see a rock band. However, they might not be the bands that TBers are in.

Sure, there are still plenty, but not nearly as many as there used to be in recent decades - a trend that was noticeable starting in the early 2000s and was likely confounded by a bunch of other direct and/or indirect factors - like the fact that kids don't NEED a bar in order to hook up in the same way we did in the '80s. And hook up they do! And then it's straight to Netflix and chill.

 

[AngusHasMoxie]

I think it's a region by region thing. In Western Mass, I played a lot of gigs ten years ago at these local venues, and am just starting up again. I have noticed a significant INCREASE in quality of these venues. Better locations, GREAT sound (an overpowered FOH in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing... awesome! Crystal clear and nobody's ears hurt) and they're even paying bands what they agreed on before the show!

 

[japhy4529]

...And if the venue owner refuses to pay, we negotiated a you pay half we will pay half deal which he accepted. It allowed us a steady gig as the house band. These fees are not so palatable to venue owners who struggle to make the business work.

Your choice of course. I just wanted to point out as a general statement to those unaware that it's the venue owner's responsibility to pay, not the band. If you decide to help them out and it proves beneficial to all parties, then great.

 

[petrus61]

I honestly don't think anti-smoking laws have been a big deal. At least not here. Probably just as many people more willing to come out as people who stay home, due to them.

Fragmentation of entertainment choices, sure. Though EDM is nothing new. It's just the newest variation of disco and other stuff that's been dominating dance clubs for decades.

There are still plenty of people who want to go out and see a rock band. However, they might not be the bands that TBers are in.

They were a pretty big deal when they were first implemented here in NY. When the weather was nice, half the bar would shuffle outside at a set break and they might slowly start to trickle back in during the middle of the next set. People tend to congregate where their friends or potential mates are, and one person going out for a smoke might mean three people follow, etc. I think that phenomena has more or less peaked already with younger audiences and less people smoking in general. That said, if folks are walking out in droves for a cigarette in the middle of a song, it probably isn't the nicotine to blame.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I haven't read the whole thing because F that.

I personnaly don't like going to see and hear a cover band ... it is very boring to me on top of the bad sound way way way too loud. I prefer to listen to the perfect take on a CD or iPod or whatever in great sound system while enjoying a glass of wine that didn't cost as much as a brand new DVD at retail store.

If I'm going to see a band, I want something new that I can't buy and not filed with drunks.

Last time I saw a band live it was jazz music, without alcohol and it was fun because it was actually not that loud and people where interested in the music instead of a way-too-loud background ( if anyone wanted to know it was Chick Corea solo ).

Also we have so much possibilitees for entertainment that I can do many things instead of spending way too much on beer.

Also music is now a consummable, it doesn't have the value it once have for many of the old timer. And it seems many old timer have a hard time accepting that, time changes and the younger crowd do different stuff and not value music, I'm one of those.

It is fun and it let me exteriorize my feeling but seriously, I play for me, I don't want money for it.

 

[Robroy]

I don't think the audience for live music is shrinking nearly as much as TB folks think. I do think that it might be shifting away from the kind of live music that lots of TB members play, however.

In my experience, generally when the bands are on, it's too loud to talk inside the venue. At least to really hold a conversation. So if you're there, you really are there to see the bands.

I actually tend to agree, and think it mightily depends on where you live. I think the live music thing is hopping in my old home town of Seattle. But it's the walking dead in the rural area I now live. And you are right about the type of music having a lot to do with it.

 

[Robroy]

They're one and the same. Where do you think shows usually are? If you're on a date, or if you're trying to flirt with someone, a show is just not the right place to do that, as it'll probably be too loud. And if it isn't, you're probably yelling over a quiet part in the song and so everyone around you wants to punch you in the face.

Sorry, I see them as fundamentally different. At a bar, you can meet someone, dance with them, talk during breaks or go outside and talk, or in the lobby. And people go to have fun, listen to the music, dance, meet people.

A concert has a fundamentally different purpose and form. It is about experiencing the band, the crowd and, for some, the drugs. It's not really about meeting the opposite sex, though it can happen.

That being said, I did go with a bunch of friends to a Who concert way back in the day and ended up meeting a girl, but that was a really unique situation.

All of my comments are about my experience with live band bars in Seattle, as well as places where I've visited around the country as well as concerts I've attended.

BTW, there is a place called Red Rock (I think that's the name) in Eden Prarie that had live music on Wednesday nights. I liked to go there when on business there in the twin cities because the bands were always amazing. They were always packed when I went there. And as a very happily married middle aged guy, it was a bit challenging because it was absolutely packed with lots of quite beautiful women in the "ten years younger than me" range that were way too aggressive and seemed to think they were in Vegas.

But the point is, I know those places still exist and I've never seen that at a concert of any type.

 

[Nephilymbass]

We've definetly played some dives. But in my area I have seen improvements over the years probably more so because we've worked out which venues we like to play which cut down on issues dramatically. Some of the issues still remain. I've seen clubs actually have clean bathrooms during load in and then two hours later be totally trashed. We've played some out of town venues for the first time that claimed to have professional pa but we get there and they have dj quality pa (for example a couple beat up jbl eons and no subs that often can barely only handle vocals. We've played places where the "stage" wasn't a stage at all just a marked off area in a corner. My complaints are often more with PA or the stage than with anything else. But it's really not that big of an issue anymore. We only play new venues a couple times a year. We have a handful that we like to play on a regular basis and we sometimes do bigger buy on gigs opening for nationals at venues that don't typically book local bands at all. The two venues we play most often are actually owned by two musicians (both of them drummers) that play in bands and they feel your pain so they do a pretty good job keeping the places clean and the PA systems pounding.

To give you an idea of stages. This is the smallest stage we play on regularly. This is the drunk horse pub in Fayetteville NC. Nice lighting and the PA is way overkill for the size of the building building (they have 4 2x18" subs) for a venue that only holds maybe 200 people but it's awesome. It's the smaller of the two venues we play on town but the sound is great and the people are great. Being arguably the most popular band in town We ussually get a guarantee for shows there.

this is where we play the most. The rock shop music hall in Fayetteville, NC. This is a massive venue that books huge bands and the owner happens to be in a local band and is very supportive of the local scene. Pay is good unless you're on a 6 band blowout show.

Us on the 2nd stage (the smaller of the two)

The main stage

side view of main stage

Here's a crowd shot of the most packed out indoor headlining show we've played with no national bands on the bill. Fayetteville is home to Fort Bragg so a lot of soldiers and their families in the area.

This is the festival park stage we play for festivals in town

Another view of the same stage
With a full orchestra on it

Here's Hooligans in Jacksonville NC. Played there recently. Great venue with great people (tons of marines) that always has national bands but it's tough to get paying gigs there. Not my band in picture

ziggys by the sea in Wilmington, NC. Played there recently as well. Looks totally different with all the lights on. The floor where the crowd stands is concrete (no carpet) Again a tough place for local bands to get paid but great venue otherwise. (Not us in pic)

we tend to make most of our money in Fayetteville which helps
Offset not making as much out of town. Took January off to finish recording. Our next show is in Charlotte, NC opening for Nonpoint on February 11th. We've yet to play there and actually haven't played Charlotte in years but it looks promising

 

[Passinwind]

It feels to me like a little paint, a mop, and maybe some working urinals could go a long way to rejuvenate local music scenes. Am I wrong? Am I taking crazy pills here?

Dunno, but in my world there are around a dozen pretty decent live music venues within a twenty minute drive, and the "metro area" has a population of maybe 20,000 people tops. Due to health issues I'm down to only attending one or two shows a month, and I haven't paid a cover in at least a few years. I would for the right band perfectly happily though.

 

[bucephylus]

I think weekend warrior hacks that play for no money/beer are the biggest threat to small live music venues that exists, assuming we're talking about cover acts. Original acts that often work solely for promotion need to roll with what they got. There's a middle ground somewhere...

I'm not sure how you define "weekend warrior hack," which sounds disturbingly subjective; but, I absolutely do not agree that the issues confronting live music on the local scene are incapable musicians. Perhaps, that is or isn't what you meant. As Rob has described in the couple of quotes below, one huge aspect is that we now have a fairly significant regional variation going on. That variation is IME largely the result of differences in demand from patrons. Perhaps, where you live and gig, there is significant live music demand. Out here in AZ, which has laws influenced by a significant Mormon population, the DUI limits have been reduced to anything more than one beer; while, at the same time, our cities sprawl, but have insignificant public transportation. Very different from the East Coast.

My area is jam packed full of places to play. People who run these places are committed to live music. Frankly, if the band sucks or the venue doesn't have a band that night, people walk down the street and listen elsewhere

That's the way it should work. The Albany area is a cool place, in part due to substantial investment in the area.

Conversely, I lived in SoCal for 17 years. Total opposite experience. Dj's, bump and grind clubs. Closer to the beach, tougher to find a gig.

Ah, yes. And, from what I can tell CA is better than AZ.

Anyhow, club owners are just generally people trying to make some money. Most of them know very little about music. Bottom line is that the quality of the venues is largely due to the relative competition for the entertainment value. Here in Tucson, the live venues are few and always operating on meager margins. Meanwhile, the restaurant scene is RIDICULOUS. We have so many over the top restaurants that, if you were wealthy, you could eat at a different high end restaurant every night for weeks without going to the same one twice. Many are lines out the door, forget about any hope of getting a meal without reservations well in advance. So, at least here, people are going out. They just aren't generally looking for music.

 

[socialleper]

We've definetly played some dives. But in my area I have seen improvements over the years probably more so because we've worked out which venues we like to play which cut down on issues dramatically. Some of the issues still remain. I've seen clubs actually have clean bathrooms during load in and then two hours later be totally trashed. We've played some out of town venues for the first time that claimed to have professional pa but we get there and they have dj quality pa (for example a couple beat up jbl eons and no subs that often can barely only handle vocals. We've played places where the "stage" wasn't a stage at all just a marked off area in a corner. My complaints are often more with PA or the stage than with anything else. But it's really not that big of an issue anymore. We only play new venues a couple times a year. We have a handful that we like to play on a regular basis and we sometimes do bigger buy on gigs opening for nationals at venues that don't typically book local bands at all. The two venues we play most often are actually owned by two musicians (both of them drummers) that play in bands and they feel your pain so they do a pretty good job keeping the places clean and the PA systems pounding.

To give you an idea of stages. This is the smallest stage we play on regularly. This is the drunk horse pub in Fayetteville NC. Nice lighting and the PA is way overkill for the size of the building building (they have 4 2x18" subs) for a venue that only holds maybe 200 people but it's awesome. It's the smaller of the two venues we play on town but the sound is great and the people are great. Being arguably the most popular band in town We ussually get a guarantee for shows there.
View attachment 1029709

this is where we play the most. The rock shop music hall in Fayetteville, NC. This is a massive venue that books huge bands and the owner happens to be in a local band and is very supportive of the local scene. Pay is good unless you're on a 6 band blowout show.

Us on the 2nd stage (the smaller of the two)
View attachment 1029719
The main stage View attachment 1029720side view of main stage
View attachment 1029721Here's a crowd shot of the most packed out indoor headlining show we've played with no national bands on the bill. Fayetteville is home to Fort Bragg sona lot of soldiers and their families in the area.
View attachment 1029722

This is the festival park stage we play for festivals in town
View attachment 1029731 Another view of the same stage
With a full orchestra on it
View attachment 1029736Here's Hooligans in Jacksonville NC. Played there recently. Great venue with great people (tons of marines) that always has national bands but it's though to get paying gigs there. Not my band in picture View attachment 1029751 ziggys by the sea in Wilmington, NC. Played there recently as well. Looks totally different with all the lights on. The floor where the crowd stands is concrete (no carpet) Again a tough place for local bands to get paid but great venue otherwise. (Not us in pic) View attachment 1029760we tend to make most of our money in Fayetteville which helps
Offset not making as much out of town. Took January off to finish recording. Our next show is in Charlotte, NC opening for Nonpoint on February 11th. We've yet to play there and actually haven't played Charlotte in years but it looks promising
View attachment 1029767

Those look nice.

 

[Robroy]

I honestly don't think anti-smoking laws have been a big deal. At least not here. Probably just as many people more willing to come out as people who stay home, due to them.

Fragmentation of entertainment choices, sure. Though EDM is nothing new. It's just the newest variation of disco and other stuff that's been dominating dance clubs for decades.

There are still plenty of people who want to go out and see a rock band. However, they might not be the bands that TBers are in.

I have a friend in Seattle that I used to play with that is now in several tribute bands. They play casinos and some bars as well. He does a lot of lamenting about the death of the live music bar in that area and most definitely pins a lot of the blame on the smoke free laws. Clubs have closed down with it being one of the main reasons.

Another culprit is the DUI crackdown. It's just not considered acceptable to have a few shots and drive home. When I was in my late 20's, I was in commercial real estate in Downtown Seattle. It was common for us to head out to a local Mexican restaurant (often with our wives) and down quite a few shots and hop in the car, seriously drunk, and drive home. Some of us drove 20-30 miles home. It is unconscionable to me now. But it's only partly because I'm older.

The culture has changed. Going out to a bar to see a live band is not the same thing it was 20-60 years ago.

 

[cchorney]

I am part of the problem, apparently. The problem is, the people that my bands draw are my age (mid 50's). They want to go out and have dinner and a drink and get home for bed by 10:30. They don't run up a big bar tab and they don't stay for the third set. Hell, I'm lucky if they stay for the second set.

FYI, I play in two cover bands, and participate in several weekly jams at various bars.

For the jams, when I do these I buy maybe 1-2 drinks. I tip heavily, because I'm taking up chair space for 3-4 hours, but for the venue owner, paying for the band has to cost them more than they additionally take in because of the live music. I can only imagine the bar owners host these just to get people used to coming to their establishment in the hopes of drawing them in on other nights as well.

For the gigs, we play mid sized restaurant/taverns, and our bands bring in 20-30 people, many of whom buy dinner. But as I said at the top, they don't drink much if at all, and as I understand bar economics, that's a problem. Frankly, I look at the places that pay well and they get bands that bring in a younger crowd that doesn't buy as many dinners, but they dance a lot more than my crowd dances, and they drink a LOT more than my crowd drinks. And they shamelessly play music that people want to dance to. If that means "Uptown Funk, the 15 minute version" leading off every set, that's what they do. And yes, while I detest audience talk between songs from the band, it's our JOB to sell whatever drink the bar is trying to sell.

On the venue side, it really helps if they have a website and a Facebook page, they keep both current for the entertainment section, and they push on social media what they are hosting. And if they have a clean bathroom with stall doors that close, soap at the sink, and paper towels in the dispenser.

On the band side, playing at a volume that allows bartenders to hear the customer's orders is essential, as is providing a positive experience for bar owners (in the form of happy attendees who dance and drink and go home wanting to come back soon).

 

[socialleper]

One trend I'm seeing in this conversation and in general on TB is that music scenes in "smaller" places tend to be a little more happening. Building a new club in one of the three biggest cities in America is super hard just because of how expensive it is to get the property. New, more well furnished places would logically be on the outskirts where space is cheaper and more plentiful.
One might also guess that getting to venues would be easier in less congested areas, and that there might be a little less to do in suburban areas.
The flip side of that, is that bars and clubs with "rock music" get a bad rap and neighborhoods full of soccer moms don't want venues opening near them. They are fine with Hooters and Tilted Kilt though .

These are all interesting responses and have given me a lot to think about.

 

[Nephilymbass]

Those look nice.

Yeah but trust me weve played a lot of places over the years that were totally different in order to know where we want to play.