Are modern amps "harsher"?

[40Hz]

What you may be taking about that you don't get in a modern amp - unless they design it into the circuitry - are some of the things that make a tube amp sound the way it does. There's natural compression, slower transient response, and different note bloom that's a natural consequence of the limitations of tube technology. And that has an effect on the sound. Some people hear that as rounder or smoother. It's a sound I also happen to prefer even though it's considered "old school" in some quarters.

 

[pigpen1]

Modern amps are harsh? Compared to the hifi-ass amps of the 80s and 90s? Hell no. You're stoned.

Maybe our definitions of harsh are different

 

[pigpen1]

What you may be taking about that you don't get in a modern amp - unless they design it into the circuitry - are some of the things that make a tube amp sound the way it does. There's natural compression, slower transient response, and different note bloom that's a natural consequence of the limitations of tube technology. And that has an effect on the sound. Some people hear that as rounder or smoother. It's a sound I also happen to prefer even though it's considered "old school" in some quarters.

I like round and smooth. The low notes, the round low end. Its why I picked bass over guitar.

 

[SactoBass]

What you may be taking about that you don't get in a modern amp - unless they design it into the circuitry - are some of the things that make a tube amp sound the way it does. There's natural compression, slower transient response, and different note bloom that's a natural consequence of the limitations of tube technology. And that has an effect on the sound. Some people hear that as rounder or smoother. It's a sound I also happen to prefer even though it's considered "old school" in some quarters.

Sactobass raises his hand and says "I'm in that quarter!"

 

[40Hz]

I like round and smooth. The low notes, the round low end. Its why I picked bass over guitar.

Same here. With new amps I'm always trying to make them a little less immediate and hairtrigger and nervous feeling than they can be. Fortunately most out them have more than enough a range of adjustment that they can be toned down to at least what I find acceptable.

There's also newer amps like Mesa's D800 that can easily be dialed in cor the kind of timbre I prefer.

 

[40Hz]

Sactobass raises his hand and says "I'm in that quarter!"

A lot of us are I think. Not everybody wants a Jaco or Flea type of sound. Some of us even don't care for slaping and popping. At all.

Big world. There's room for all tastes.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

It all depends on what you mean by harsh I guess. For the flats loving, tweeter hating crowd ( nothing but love guys, I get it), I could totally see rigs with an extended frequency response - particularly in terms of high-frequency content as coming across as harsher to many ears.

If the harshness is due to a perceived "sterile" sounding ultra clean tone, then I could also see certain modern, high-wattage, super-clean amps being guilty by that definition.

Mind you, I'm not talking about amp class or anything, just things that personally associate with a "modern" sounding rig (it actually has nothing to do with the age of gear really).

In most cases a few knob turns, and maybe a few dollars in outboard gear can make a huge difference.

Just my 2c.

My sansamp does the trick. I notice some ultra clarity going on by itself also. Not harsh, just more like every single mid frequency imaginable being successfully produced. Eq adjustment on both the amp and instrument mellows out what I don't want in there though. But, bypassing the amp pre opens up so many options I didn't use to have. Now, I can make my amp sound like anything I want it to, instead of just fiddling with the on board eq. And, it sounds amazing.

 

[SactoBass]

Not everybody wants a Jack or Flea type of sound. Some of us even don't care for slapping and popping. At all.

That would be me!

 

[Artman]

A lot of us are I think. Not everybody wants a Jaco or Flea type of sound. Some of us even don't care for slaping and popping. At all.

Big world. There's room for all tastes.

Jaco and flea are about as diametrically opposed both stylistically and tone-wise as two players can get. But I understand what you mean.
I used to have a total disdain for slap/pop bass. Maybe because it was so fashionable during the 80,s and 90’s. But today, I really love to hear it done tastefully in a Jazz context. Marcus or Stanley for example. Still not a big fan of slap/pop in rock, and I still kind of suck at slap bass.

 

[40Hz]

Jaco and flea are about as diametrically opposed both stylistically and tone-wise as two players can get. But I understand what you mean.
I used to have a total disdain for slap/pop bass. Maybe because it was so fashionable during the 80,s and 90’s. But today, I really love to hear it done tastefully in a Jazz context. Marcus or Stanley for example. Still not a big fan of slap/pop in rock, and I still kind of suck at slap bass.

Yes. Jack and Flea are stylistically and tonally different but are still very much in keeping with our current entirely different modern bass tone and style. I picked those two as examples to try to cover the spectrum of the newer edgier bass style and sound.

Contrast that with Motown or classic rock or even the original prog vibe.

As far as slap goes, I don't have disdain for it at all. I just don't happen to care for how it sounds. And I think there are better percussion instrument choices available for doing that sort of thing. But that's me. As long as I don't have to play that way I'm perfectly fine with somebody else wanting to. Just don't expect me to listen very long if they do.

 

[Al Kraft]

I own a d800+. I'm currently playing with an aggie db212. Doesn't seem to go well together. My tone hammer seemed better with it tbh.

To me the Aguilar DB cabs are quite mid forward/present and the D-800+ straight up is fairly clean, so I could imagine you'd get a touch of harshness (mids in your face) there. The TH while very harmonically mid rich is also very tube sounding for a SS head, so it makes sense to me that you'd like that better based on my own experience wit that head.

I don't think today's heads and/or cabs are necessarily harsher, but I do think we have a lot more voicing choices and some of the nicer heads start out kind of neutral to give the player a lot of room for tone sculpting IMO. Mesa Carbines and GK MB's can be fast, crispy, and produce a lot of bite/cut, but then we have the Aguilar TH and Mesa Walkabout which sound as rich as many old school tube heads to my ear.

 

[pfschim]

Perhaps I'm using incorrect nomenclature when I think of class D digital amplification. My thoughts aside where that in order to accommodate a smaller chassis and to curb weight, the amp is running "flavoring" to give it character.

I could use some clarification on the matter but, when I think of digital, I think of programmed to sound good enough in a small package. I use a digital rig now --TCRH750, and find that the tube factor sounds like it's baked in. My only complaint is your paying a premium price for less material that is mass produced to save cost.

It's high consumption that cost the manufacturer little to nothing to produce. Probably why micro amps are hard to save when they experience near critical failures but, I digress.

Here is a good article that explains class D digital amps: Invalid Link Removed

I don't want to be Capt Obvious here, but you do know that Class D has nothing specifically to do with digital .... right ?
Class D is just another type of power amp class, along with several others used in amps .. like A (not common in bass amps), the most common A/B, G (not common) and H (not common).

Also, the use of chips in a circuit does not automatically mean Digital .. there are Analog chips as well.

You are right about your TC RH750 using some digital signal processing, and memory presets, but its final output stage is some form of analog (class D with an SMPS power supply I think), because humans cannot hear "digital" audio as that implies 1's and 0's.

I'm sorry if you already know all this .. it just seemed like maybe not.

 

[pigpen1]

To me the Aguilar DB cabs are quite mid forward/present and the D-800+ straight up is fairly clean, so I could imagine you'd get a touch of harshness (mids in your face) there. The TH while very harmonically mid rich is also very tube sounding for a SS head, so it makes sense to me that you'd like that better based on my own experience wit that head.

I don't think today's heads and/or cabs are necessarily harsher, but I do think we have a lot more voicing choices and some of the nicer heads start out kind of neutral to give the player a lot of room for tone sculpting IMO. Mesa Carbines and GK MB's can be fast, crispy, and produce a lot of bite/cut, but then we have the Aguilar TH and Mesa Walkabout which sound as rich as many old school tube heads to my ear.

I agree with this for the most part. I wish I could take parts of all my favorite amps and combine them into one.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm saying my d800+ is anything but a great amp. It surely is. I just wonder, when I have to radically eq every new amp I get to the point where I think I"m starting from from the wrong place. Seems like back in the day I plugged in, boosts some lows (or deep button). Killed some hi-mids and I was good to go.

 

[Maynjo]

I think you need to try some of Aguilar's stuff. To me my AG 700 set flat is already kind of warm, but it's also very clear. I can dial in pretty much any kind of sound I want with this thing. It also sounds to me like you probably just don't like tweeters..

 

[Al Kraft]

I think you need to try some of Aguilar's stuff. To me my AG 700 set flat is already kind of warm, but it's also very clear. I can dial in pretty much any kind of sound I want with this thing. It also sounds to me like you probably just don't like tweeters..

I played an AG700 two weeks ago and I agree. It's like a combination of one part TH 500 warmth and two parts old AG500 quickness and clarity.

 

[mesaplayer83]

Sactobass raises his hand and says "I'm in that quarter!"

Same here...

 

[pigpen1]

I think you need to try some of Aguilar's stuff. To me my AG 700 set flat is already kind of warm, but it's also very clear. I can dial in pretty much any kind of sound I want with this thing. It also sounds to me like you probably just don't like tweeters..

I like them turned down about 90% lol. I can't imagine how anyone can run one full blast with cranking lows to compensate.

 

[agedhorse]

Well, look at the case of the Mesa D800. Outside of two very small boards, you have ample room for the powerplant. Compared to the tube and class A/B amps before it, there really isn't much there. If the boards aren't part of the equation for smaller footprint, then what is?

Everything is responsible for the smaller size and lighter weight. Mostly, it's due to the switchmode power supply and class D amps operating at PWM frequencies over 200kHz which makes magnetics lighter, and with non-linear (switching) topologies the heat is many times lower so heat sinks are smaller/lighter.

We're getting out of my league a bit here, so I'll let others give a better explanation if they so choose, but if I'm not mistaken it call comes down to efficiency. Due to the very way that Class-D and switch mode power supplies operate, they're ridiculously efficient - therefore smaller components can be used, particularly transformers and cooling elements like heat sinks. Again, I'll stop here and wait to be corrected, or for additional details to be added by those much smarter than me.

Yup, correct.

Edit: Just to be clear, when I read "due to the fact boards can be machined so small" it makes me think of improvements in pcb etching and the like. I suppose it's possible that I could have taken the article the wrong way, but I don't think so after rereading it.

I agree, that's an odd way of putting it.

That makes two of us.

When you look at Mesa marketing, they mention that they took the best of all of their previous amps circuitry to make the D800 sound very good. Again, my thoughts are that one possible way to achieve that is by chipset/digital means to control the front end of the preamp.

I'm relatively new to Class D amps but, that is the only way I can think of modern amps being able to sound so good. Another good reason why so many bass preamps are being offered in a pedal vs rack mount nowadays. I would believe that you can ditch circuit board space for onboard chipsets. Something that most pedals and amps used in the early 2000's.

In the D-800 preamp and all signal processing outside the power amp, it's 100% analog and discrete other than some op-amps. No digital, no chipsets controlling the preamp.

What you may be taking about that you don't get in a modern amp - unless they design it into the circuitry - are some of the things that make a tube amp sound the way it does. There's natural compression, slower transient response, and different note bloom that's a natural consequence of the limitations of tube technology. And that has an effect on the sound. Some people hear that as rounder or smoother. It's a sound I also happen to prefer even though it's considered "old school" in some quarters.

The D-800 does have tube emulation circuitry in both the input and the output, the idea is to emulate how the different tube types and topologies break up when mildly overdriven. It's 100% discrete analog circuitry.

 

[pigpen1]

I played an AG700 two weeks ago and I agree. It's like a combination of one part TH 500 warmth and two parts old AG500 quickness and clarity.

I'd love to try one. I've hard great things. Nearest dealer is about 4-5 hours from here unfortunately. Could do the sweetwater mail order demo.

 

[Maynjo]

I like them turned down about 90% lol. I can't imagine how anyone can run one full blast with cranking lows to compensate.

It depends on the cab, but yeah I generally keep them below 50%.