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Are on board active preamps really necessary ?
- Thread starter BassikBrad
- Start date
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In Memoriam
Eric Vee and Element Zero;
Disagreeing viewpoints are allowed here. Sniping at each other is not. Make your points politely.
Disagreeing viewpoints are allowed here. Sniping at each other is not. Make your points politely.
The signal issue is more impedance related than signal - e.g. you get a decent frequency spectrum down a long cable from stage to FOH using a direct box. It's not a hot signal. Balanced helps with noise, but not the frequencies. A hot signal can also help you boost the level of the signal above the noise which is more of a concern if you are using a long unbalanced cable.
If you use effects that include buffering then a six foot cable to the pedal would allow you a long run to an amp thereafter. I'm not convinced that a six foot run degrades the signal particularly. Certainly, if I plug into one of the various external preamps I have then if it has a high input impedance it imparts something of an active bass sound to a passive bass, and more so if I tweak the EQ. None of them I could easily adjust unless I found a way to strap one to my belt or something.
In terms of more treble, I imagine if you bypassed all the pots on a passive bass and went straight into an external preamp using a one foot patch cable it would be the same sound. It would be possible to add switching to a passive bass to achieve that and retain the standard configuration. I suppose with a dual input mixing preamp and a stereo jack you could do it for a two pickup bass but you might need a small trolley rather than a belt hook if you were using an off the shelf external preamp. But then you could take an aftermarket preamp normally fitted into the bass and adapt it, which I might do as a project some day. If I was feeling adventurous I'd use the Passinwind design.
I am ordering my first active bass from Kiesel. I hope I like it as much as my passive Birdsong.
I hope you do too, I'm guessing custom made ones will be better than the mass produced ones, I find passive to have a smoother tone which I like others will prefer an active tone.
Just searched for such a discussion....
I'm starting to think Passive is the way -- I mean Why limit yourself to ONE preamp when you can get all that and easily change it with pedals. Why Worry about a battery when you pedal is powered directly....
What not get all the Bass you can get for your money and leave the "Coloring" of sound to all the options you have for pedals?
Even the Best Pre-amp in the world... just give it to me on the floor....
I'm starting to think Passive is the way -- I mean Why limit yourself to ONE preamp when you can get all that and easily change it with pedals. Why Worry about a battery when you pedal is powered directly....
What not get all the Bass you can get for your money and leave the "Coloring" of sound to all the options you have for pedals?
Even the Best Pre-amp in the world... just give it to me on the floor....
I have a passive US EBMM Stingray SUB and now an active Sterling Ray 34 - it's pretty interesting to note the differences and similarities between the two. The passive Stingray sounds warmer, a little like a combination between a Ray and a P bass but definitely has that trademark punch of the Ray.
I agree with your statement, I'm not adverse to one or the other, it really depends on the bass - I prefer passive for my classic P bass or Jazz bass sound.
That being said, when I first started out as a teen many years ago, I used to have that mistaken notion that having an active bass meant more volume and boost - it seemed necessary especially for a kid with a pretty underpowered amp who didn't want to be drowned out by the drummer and guitarist. So early on, I was strictly going with active basses, but later came to appreciate the passive basses.
I have 2 basses that don't have an active preamp, but do have active pickups, so, not really necessary there.
I have found them useful, even necessary, on other basses in different situations.
I have found them useful, even necessary, on other basses in different situations.
I think the benefits of 'active' pickups, preamps, etc., get thrown around very loosely, and often, incorrectly.
Alembic and EMG come to mind, as 'low impedance' pickups. This concept takes pickups that have fewer winds and correspondingly lower output, and places a preamp inside the pickup shell. This accomplishes several things:
-it tends to minimize the 'proximity effect' with regular pickups whereby the closer they're raised to the strings you get more output but pickup more noise, more highs, and maybe a tone you don't want. EMG's or Alembics can be run right up to the strings with very little change in tone.
-they tend to be more quiet as they have fewer winds, therefore the 'low impedance' term(s) you see bandied around.
-and in EMG's case, they're internally grounded: No more ground wire to the bridge, and you've eliminated any chance of getting bit by a mic on the wrong side of your ground. EMG's are also internally shielded, so you can install them in a lot of cases with no foil lining, shielding paint, etc., if connected to one of their tone networks.
-with the preamp in the pickup, the output can be designed in, voicing as well if wanted. This also raises the output at the jack to the high impedance the amp is expecting. In fact, it can often be a higher output than typical pickups, so you see the 'passive' and 'active' inputs on many amps.
Now you can wire them with any kind of tone network afterward, whether it's any of the various EMG circuits (BTC, BTS, EXP, etc.) or the various filter packs Alembic offers. There's other makes as well, these are just the two I'm familiar with.
The preamps require additional power to drive this, so we see either 9v or 18v, or the offboard rack power for some Alembics. Once this is in place, this also drives the accompanying tone circuits.
In the market, the confusion comes from often regular high impedance pickups (passive) that are connected to powered active tone circuits, the typical two or three band cut/boost used in all of these. So these aren't really active pickups in the technical sense, but often implied, I think, incorrectly.
As to whether they're 'necessary' ? That's entirely up to you and what you want to hear, and what control you want onboard the instrument. Some guys want as little as possible on the bass and run everything from the amp. Some want the reverse. Some think keeping up with the batteries is a pain. And on and on. As always, what works for you is the only right answer.
Alembic and EMG come to mind, as 'low impedance' pickups. This concept takes pickups that have fewer winds and correspondingly lower output, and places a preamp inside the pickup shell. This accomplishes several things:
-it tends to minimize the 'proximity effect' with regular pickups whereby the closer they're raised to the strings you get more output but pickup more noise, more highs, and maybe a tone you don't want. EMG's or Alembics can be run right up to the strings with very little change in tone.
-they tend to be more quiet as they have fewer winds, therefore the 'low impedance' term(s) you see bandied around.
-and in EMG's case, they're internally grounded: No more ground wire to the bridge, and you've eliminated any chance of getting bit by a mic on the wrong side of your ground. EMG's are also internally shielded, so you can install them in a lot of cases with no foil lining, shielding paint, etc., if connected to one of their tone networks.
-with the preamp in the pickup, the output can be designed in, voicing as well if wanted. This also raises the output at the jack to the high impedance the amp is expecting. In fact, it can often be a higher output than typical pickups, so you see the 'passive' and 'active' inputs on many amps.
Now you can wire them with any kind of tone network afterward, whether it's any of the various EMG circuits (BTC, BTS, EXP, etc.) or the various filter packs Alembic offers. There's other makes as well, these are just the two I'm familiar with.
The preamps require additional power to drive this, so we see either 9v or 18v, or the offboard rack power for some Alembics. Once this is in place, this also drives the accompanying tone circuits.
In the market, the confusion comes from often regular high impedance pickups (passive) that are connected to powered active tone circuits, the typical two or three band cut/boost used in all of these. So these aren't really active pickups in the technical sense, but often implied, I think, incorrectly.
As to whether they're 'necessary' ? That's entirely up to you and what you want to hear, and what control you want onboard the instrument. Some guys want as little as possible on the bass and run everything from the amp. Some want the reverse. Some think keeping up with the batteries is a pain. And on and on. As always, what works for you is the only right answer.
I went from an active 3 band EQ to only active pickups with b/v/t and found it much more useful for live use, simplicity is good for me there and the sound of the bass was always predictable and reliable.
The active PUs always cut through the mix...
The active PUs always cut through the mix...
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,066
- 45,992
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Since I was curious, I bought a very cheap (same as the Belcat ones, I think) 3 band preamp to turn into an external unit to see how that would work. I have plenty of external preamps but I was curious what an internal preamp as an external unit would be like. I need to dig out a second jack socket from the parts box. The ABS box I sourced to put it in was a misleading size, so not quite big enough. I have some industrial-strength velcro for strap attachment duties.
OK, my thoughts...First: It's my understanding that Ron Wickersham (the Alembic guru) came up with what we think of as the Active Guitar (and Bass) as a solution to 2 problems. One was the signal loss on stage, from long cables between the amp and the instrument. The other problem was the increasingly hot pickups as the solution to the first problem. They were getting just too hot to sound good. Wickersham's solution was a pickup, wound at a much lower output, that sounded good. Then, he ran it thru a pre-amp to boost that clean signal - over a long cable - to the amp - with little/no signal loss. Problem solved...
Second: Everybody always seems to confuse "pre-amp" with "equalizer". They really aren't the same thing; ask any serious audiophile. All those boost/cut knobs and sweep controls are part of the equalizer. And, having one on board the bass is simply the result of having a pre-amp that can have equalizer functions added on. It's perfectly possible to have one without the other, but... the current system we have now is a good example of " since we can cram it all on a circuit board - why not?" My Alembic Epic has very minimal equalizer functions, and - whether I like it or not - is "Active" only. There is no passive option. Honestly? Much as I prefer my passive basses, I have to admit that the Epic sounds pretty damn good. The equalizer stuff is pretty nice, too. I tend not to fiddle with it much, but I don't fiddle with the tone controls on my passive basses much, either...
So, is it really necessary? Yes, in some performance situations, the pre-amp certainly is. That's why it was invented in the first place. In the case of a small band on a small stage, where you can trip over your amp? Or for a "bedroom" player like I am now? No, it isn't necessary; but lots of people really, really like it. Is the equalizer function really necessary? Well... players managed to get by without it - until it was invented; but people managed to get buy without cell phones or home computers, too. Still, you can't deny that tweeking your sound right on the bass is very convenient. I don't think anybody wants to give that up, any more than they want to go back to that black Ma Bell telephone...
Admittedly, correct. 2 active PUs are 2 preamps on the bass.
However, the difference between 2 active PUs and those plus various other knobs is noticeable in many contexts... And, admittedly, not always better or worse.
Although, still easier for me in a live setting.
However, the difference between 2 active PUs and those plus various other knobs is noticeable in many contexts... And, admittedly, not always better or worse.
Although, still easier for me in a live setting.
Active pickups still arguably constitute an onboard preamp, or often two.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,066
- 45,992
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Admittedly, correct. 2 active PUs are 2 preamps on the bass.
However, the difference between 2 active PUs and those plus various other knobs is noticeable in many contexts... And, admittedly, not always better or worse.
Although, still easier for me in a live setting.
Roger that. Finding the right set of tradeoffs is such an individual thing. I'm still pretty amazed at how divergent we can be when it comes to ergonomics, perceived feature bloat, and so on. I love me some knobs, but not on the floor so much, for instance.
View attachment 3351741 OK, my thoughts...
First: It's my understanding that Ron Wickersham (the Alembic guru) came up with what we think of as the Active Guitar (and Bass) as a solution to 2 problems. One was the signal loss on stage, from long cables between the amp and the instrument. The other problem was the increasingly hot pickups as the solution to the first problem. They were getting just too hot to sound good. Wickersham's solution was a pickup, wound at a much lower output, that sounded good. Then, he ran it thru a pre-amp to boost that clean signal - over a long cable - to the amp - with little/no signal loss. Problem solved...
Second: Everybody always seems to confuse "pre-amp" with "equalizer". They really aren't the same thing; ask any serious audiophile. All those boost/cut knobs and sweep controls are part of the equalizer. And, having one on board the bass is simply the result of having a pre-amp that can have equalizer functions added on. It's perfectly possible to have one without the other, but... the current system we have now is a good example of " since we can cram it all on a circuit board - why not?" My Alembic Epic has very minimal equalizer functions, and - whether I like it or not - is "Active" only. There is no passive option. Honestly? Much as I prefer my passive basses, I have to admit that the Epic sounds pretty damn good. The equalizer stuff is pretty nice, too. I tend not to fiddle with it much, but I don't fiddle with the tone controls on my passive basses much, either...
So, is it really necessary? Yes, in some performance situations, the pre-amp certainly is. That's why it was invented in the first place. In the case of a small band on a small stage, where you can trip over your amp? Or for a "bedroom" player like I am now? No, it isn't necessary; but lots of people really, really like it. Is the equalizer function really necessary? Well... players managed to get by without it - until it was invented; but people managed to get buy without cell phones or home computers, too. Still, you can't deny that tweeking your sound right on the bass is very convenient. I don't think anybody wants to give that up, any more than they want to go back to that black Ma Bell telephone...
Ideally on the bass there would have been an unbalanced and balanced output option (based on cable type inserted) and a balanced-to-unbalanced convertor to put before an amp, just to improve the signal. But I can see that simplicity on stage (especially if dark or where drink has been consumed) mitigates against that. Wals have/had XLR options buy maybe Wal players are expected to be sober.
I could have almost written an identical reply as Chadhargis on page 2.
I have four basses, two East equipped and two Noll. They all have an active/passive switch and passive tone.
A good preamp is a valuable tool.
My ACG B Retro 5 string will pretty much achieve any tone I want.
I have four basses, two East equipped and two Noll. They all have an active/passive switch and passive tone.
A good preamp is a valuable tool.
My ACG B Retro 5 string will pretty much achieve any tone I want.
