Are the big amps history?

[Buster Brown]

I wish I would have been...
Ah, those were the days. No DI boxes, no direct outs, no IEM, no mics in front of amps and
you had to reach above your head to plug in your guitar cable to the amp.
Lastly you had to be strong and fit or the sound waves pushing the air from the 4 cabs would knock you over.

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Those WERE the days...I realize that everything today is "hi-fi" and I appreciate that..but back then - everything was "new". My God....the shows that I saw in those days...for $3.00 or $4.00 (hell, I saw Sweetwater in Washington DC on the Mall} - totally free. I'll never forget. The "PA" was like 6-8 Shure Vocal Master cabinets on each side of the stage. Still, they sounded great! Why? Because there was nothing else - except maybe Altec Voice of the theater cabs...Or Sunn PAs....you get the picture..

Now? everything is digital. It sounds great, no doubt about it. Those Arrays are wonderful and those digital boards are wonderful. But as in all things, the (sort of) "spontaneity" of the whole "concert" thing seems to be gone now. Hell, it's progress, and I get it...I just watched "What a strange trip" on Netflix about the grateful dead. Check it out.

It LITERALLY blew my mind.

 

[bluesblaster]

The Dead were trying to push the technology of the day forward , as best as analog could be

 

[MegaSwing]

Yes and no. For a long time designers struggled with the tradeoffs required to retain decent high frequency extension while also being able to drive a higher moving mass in order to reproduce extended low frequencies at higher and higher SPL.

A good example of this is the original use of the JBL D/K/E-130 and D/K/E-140 speakers for bass guitar. They have a very nice, player friendly HF extension and worked fine for the low frequency expectations (and power levels) of the day. As the demands for LF extension and SPL increased, along with the increase in power levels that amps were able to deliver, the moving mass had to become heavier, suspension components became more rugged and HF extension suffered. An example of this would be the JBL 2225 speaker, which have MUCH better low end extension and control, power handling, maximum LF SPL but loses almost an octave of HF extension. It used to be that the inductance and HF flux management of a typical ceramic magnet motor was acceptable, but with the additional mechanical LF rolloff of the heavier moving mass (and cone composition and other aspects of more modern drivers) designers were looking for ways to offset these losses.

The Neo motor, due to the placement of the magnetic slug (rather than a ceramic ring) and the geometry of the structure allowed for additional HF response via reduced HF electro-magnetic losses. Early on in the Neo speaker history, SOME designers went way overboard, which contributed to the urban myth that all Neo speakers were terribly bright and harsh. Clearly, this is not by definition true as there are plenty of other examples by designers who understand the technical and engineering reasons behind Neo motors and speakers, and have made MUCH better choices in the overall design of Neo transducers, and thus the speaker systems that they are used in.

Hope this helps.

Good stuff. Thanks much.

 

[ezra1]

I have Class D, "Old School" Transistor,and Big Iron Tubes.
There is a market for all.
Like cars...4 cylinder and high performance 8 cylinder.
Toyotas and Corvettes.

 

[gary mitchell]

I really miss my SWR 750 head, Aguilar 210 and I used a 15 fane speaker, boy I miss it very much. But because of a hip problem I sold all of it in 2008 and bought a MarkBass Jeff Berlin combo 15in speaker. 47 pounds and just 1 thing to set up easy. But I doesn't have the magic of my SWR rig.

 

[Honch]

The Dead were trying to push the technology of the day forward , as best as analogue could be

That's for sure, but sure as h*ll they didn't have to haul it from gig to gig...

 

[Honch]

The Neo motor, due to the placement of the magnetic slug (rather than a ceramic ring) and the geometry of the structure allowed for additional HF response via reduced HF electro-magnetic losses. Early on in the Neo speaker history, SOME designers went way overboard, which contributed to the urban myth that all Neo speakers were terribly bright and harsh. Clearly, this is not by definition true as there are plenty of other examples by designers who understand the technical and engineering reasons behind Neo motors and speakers, and have made MUCH better choices in the overall design of Neo transducers, and thus the speaker systems that they are used in.

Hope this helps.

Oh yes, it sure did. But I find these days, like Fender Rumble new series comes with lightweight amp designs but NO neo speakers at all built in. They seem to have dodged that one for some reason. I think the most valid one would be PRICE even though neos are cheaper these days, they're still not as cheap. On the amp side, it's almost the opposite, that lightweight D amps with more power are way cheaper if you compare price to wattage. There it's a win win situation almost. Weight/Price/Efficiency ratio.

 

[bluesblaster]

That's for sure, but sure as h*ll they didn't have to haul it from gig to gig...

sure they did, its just there van was bigger than yours

 

[Turnaround]

In this day of PA support that works down to 30 or 40 Hz, why would anyone need a big amp on stage?

Why does anyone need an amp on stage at all? FOH is what the audience hears, and that's what you should hear on stage too, either from IEMs or wedges and side fills. If you are hearing your amp on stage, you might sound glorious, while what the audience is hearing is junk.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Hi Micha you could tell the difference?

....another proof that good amps and good beer can't be replaced in rock & roll

greetings

Wise

Oh yes, it was magical - no comparison to all the other bands, we've seen.
The sound did not annoyingly come from the sides/above but directly in the face!
They had a great backline, and I enjoyed the sizzeling mids happening; awesome sound, I guess it were Celestions in the guitar cabs; the mids reminded me of my G12H (55).

Untamed and directly into the face -
That's what I call a live sound experience!

Good beer and great food, as well, so true.
The Czech know how to make a rockin' bunch very very happy

 

[eigentone]

Why does anyone need an amp on stage at all? FOH is what the audience hears, and that's what you should hear on stage too, either from IEMs or wedges and side fills. If you are hearing your amp on stage, you might sound glorious, while what the audience is hearing is junk.

I'll tell you. Because the alternatives don't have the sound that a player wants.

Of course, some bassists prefer the sound of direct bass. Others prefer the sound straight out of their processor. Others prefer the sound and feel of an amp. If somebody (eg who has never heard the band) tells a player that going direct sounds better, I'd say the person making that suggestion is out of line.

I should mention that in addition to playing, I have done a good amount of live sound and spent years working in recording studios.

Sure, when you play big venues, you can move the amp off the stage and still use it while having a quiet stage. In the places most of us play, it just isn't an option. Amps are even more important to guitar players.

 

[Turnaround]

I'll tell you. Because the alternatives don't have the sound that a player wants.

Of course, some bassists prefer the sound of direct bass. Others prefer the sound straight out of their processor. Others prefer the sound and feel of an amp. If somebody (eg who has never heard the band) tells a player that going direct sounds better, I'd say the person making that suggestion is out of line.

I should mention that in addition to playing, I have done a good amount of live sound and spent years working in recording studios.

What's the point of "the sound" you want when it's not what is being delivered to the audience. Get the sound you want through the FOH, then everyone's happy. These days that's not hard to achieve.

 

[chadds]

What's the point of "the sound" you want when it's not what is being delivered to the audience. Get the sound you want through the FOH, then everyone's happy. These days that's not hard to achieve.

My big gigs I'm miked, I use my own gear, I'm DI'ed. I asked an engineer if she wanted to DI me because the bassist in the group before was only DI'ed. She said, "You've spent money and time to assemble that rig that's what we'll hear." She mic'ed and DI'ed me. I heard myself through thousands of watts. Sounded like me not the engineer's idea. My bands want to hear and feel me. I'm the bassist. I make them feel like no matter what happens I'm pushing them off the stage, always there supporting their performance. I keep getting called for live and studio work so I must be doing it for them. So it's real pres, real speakers delivering for me the tone I want to hear.

 

[agedhorse]

Oh yes, it sure did. But I find these days, like Fender Rumble new series comes with lightweight amp designs but NO neo speakers at all built in. They seem to have dodged that one for some reason. I think the most valid one would be PRICE even though neos are cheaper these days, they're still not as cheap. On the amp side, it's almost the opposite, that lightweight D amps with more power are way cheaper if you compare price to wattage. There it's a win win situation almost. Weight/Price/Efficiency ratio.

Yes, cost is a significant factor.

 

[Warwick Qc418]

I'm really enjoying the lightweight cabs but I don't really see the point of the lightweight amp. Even a very light 212 is still 45lbs. So I don't really care hauling a 25 lbs amp or even 45lbs since it's still much smaller and easier to move around than the cab.

 

[JimmyM]

What's the point of "the sound" you want when it's not what is being delivered to the audience. Get the sound you want through the FOH, then everyone's happy. These days that's not hard to achieve.

Who says it's not being delivered to the audience? All I've ever had to do to make it happen is ask, and unless the tech was incompetent, it happened.

 

[eigentone]

What's the point of "the sound" you want when it's not what is being delivered to the audience. Get the sound you want through the FOH, then everyone's happy. These days that's not hard to achieve.

Sounds great in theory but most venues simply don't have amazing sound. PAs aren't perfect, acoustics are always a factor, and good luck telling the musicians what tools they must/must not use at your club.

Not everybody wants to use Kempers and IEMs. If you use that Kemper (or whatever), the programmed sound won't be reproduced consistently night after night on a tour even though the output (level/tone) is similar night after night.

If the live sound engineer fails to get a sound that resembles the source (an amp in this case) then you might want to ask what tools he needs to do the job competently. Bypassing what somebody considers one half of the instrument is typically not the best way to get a sound which is closer to the artist's intended sound.

Telling musicians what tools they must use is a pretty easy way to make many of them unhappy with the sound they are getting. The same goes for bypassing aspects of their instrument which they feel are critical to the sound they want. Therefore, no, not everyone is happy when the soundman is happy.

 

[eigentone]

Who says it's not being delivered to the audience? All I've ever had to do to make it happen is ask, and unless the tech was incompetent, it happened.

Wow. Similar sentiment, posted seconds apart!

 

[nostatic]

Why does anyone need an amp on stage at all? FOH is what the audience hears, and that's what you should hear on stage too, either from IEMs or wedges and side fills. If you are hearing your amp on stage, you might sound glorious, while what the audience is hearing is junk.

Depends on the gig. For most my jazz hits, the only FOH is a small PA for a singer. My amp has to carry the room without being overbearing. Same story with some clubs I play - some will take a DI feed, others don't. At larger halls/gigs, indeed my amp is essentially my stage monitor, and often for the drummer. I'll stack two cabs and point one at him, then other at me. That way he doesn't need me in his monitor mix, which is busy enough in the 10-piece band.

I typically record every show, put the recorder out in the house. So I know what the audience was hearing. Rarely is it junk, though there are times when it could use a bit more booty.

 

[KJL]

Why? Because it's part of "the show". It's part of the draw.

Also depends on your situation. The last band I played in - our motto was "We bring the arena to the bar" so everything was big - big drums, big lights, big amps, lots of guitars on stage... just depends on what your stage show is as much as sounding good - there is a happy medium... gotta' find it...