Are the big amps history?

[alaskaleftybass]

I was a 16 year old kid, saw Ten Years After and The Stooges who opened for them in 1969 at a place called The Boston Tea Party. The stage was all Marshall heads and cabs, don't know how many each had but there were many little red lights on, I'd say conservatively each member had 4 heads and probably double that many cabs. Those bands sounded GOOD, it was probably the best sounding concert I've ever been to in my life. There are certainly a lot of advantages to the way sound is done nowadays but when a band really used those walls of sound back then, the sound was very clear and you really knew you were listening to a band not a big giant muddy stereo with everything mixed into the same speakers, talk about separation.

As I think about it, when the concerts weren't filling some large stadium, it was beautiful to listen to a wall of Marshalls and Ampegs. Even if it wasn't the sheer volume, it was the sheer PRESENCE the fullness that you just CAN'T duplicate with FOH and ultralights and micro Class D's. A Honda moped will get you there but not like a Harley!

 

[okcrum]

I don't have to explain it. It's been done.

Here's one starting point:
Signals and Systems (2nd Edition): Alan V. Oppenheim, Alan S. Willsky, with S. Hamid: 9780138147570: Amazon.com: Books

In the event the link changes, it's Signals and Systems by Oppenheim and Willsky.

If the entry fee is too high there's always this freebie:

The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing

 

[Son of Wobble]

I

As I think about it, when the concerts weren't filling some large stadium, it was beautiful to listen to a wall of Marshalls and Ampegs. Even if it wasn't the sheer volume, it was the sheer PRESENCE the fullness that you just CAN'T duplicate with FOH and ultralights and micro Class D's. A Honda moped will get you there but not like a Harley!

Had a similar thought a couple years ago at a rock show, audience of approx 2,000...I was watching from the foot of the stage and the chime from a dimed Vox AC30 coming into my ears was tone heaven, a thrillling, magical sound that a mic'd signal sent to FOH could never fully convey.

 

[dtripoli]

I actually believe that I was at that show.......

I wish I would have been...
Ah, those were the days. No DI boxes, no direct outs, no IEM, no mics in front of amps and
you had to reach above your head to plug in your guitar cable to the amp.
Lastly you had to be strong and fit or the sound waves pushing the air from the 4 cabs would knock you over.

 

[JimmyM]

I wish I would have been...
Ah, those were the days. No DI boxes, no direct outs, no IEM, no mics in front of amps and
you had to reach above your head to plug in your guitar cable to the amp.
Lastly you had to be strong and fit or the sound waves pushing the air from the 4 cabs would knock you over.

View attachment 1172615

I do have to admit that I never liked the idea of going deaf because our backline had to fill the sound for 5000 people at an outside venue So for that reason alone, I like PA better overall. But I do think it sounds quite cool when you don't run instruments through the PA and I welcome the opportunity in smaller venues. Doesn't happen often but I like when it does.

 

[Honch]

Odds are very high that it's not for "show"; it's for "dough". Whatever those dummy stacks say on the front, its most likely that company has an agreement with somebody; the artist, management company, promoter. etc., to display the brand on stage. Seems the artist prefers Engl, as he has one running and a backup on standby off stage, front and center in the photo.
This is extremely common, one brand showin' and another brand gowin'. The people paying the endorsement agreement don't care, costs them WAY less than fronting out $10K worth of sell-able real gear to get the snot beat out of, and anybody (who gives a rats *ss) in the audience left the show and told their player buddies "Dude had FOUR full -fill in the blank- stacks man!!!".
Also, not carrying the real deal has a positive effect on the fiscal liability of a tour's cartage and labor costs.
And... that's ($) the whole point.

Yeah, of course it's dough. But mainly for show, since this ain't that much part of any other world than hard rock, metal and the like. Mind you if it is for dough, it's for show for most. Like you yourself made the statement "dude had four stacks..." and then - if a malleable teenager - goes to think that they must've been real, so I really HAVE to use that many to get the same sound as - fill in the blank - has. It's an evil circle. A small Polytune at a jazz gig with Ray Brown on upright doesn't get the same wow effect, even if he's endorsed by them. I think there's less people there thinking "I have to use a small combo from Polytone to get that Ray Brown sound" . Now mr Brown hasn't been around since 2002 (methinks?) but you know by and large what I am getting at...

We should see any "what's the best number of stacks for metal" thread any time soon... ha ha.

 

[B-line]

Yeah, of course it's dough. But mainly for show, since this ain't that much part of any other world than hard rock, metal and the like. Mind you if it is for dough, it's for show for most. Like you yourself made the statement "dude had four stacks..." and then - if a malleable teenager - goes to think that they must've been real, so I really HAVE to use that many to get the same sound as - fill in the blank - has. It's an evil circle. A small Polytune at a jazz gig with Ray Brown on upright doesn't get the same wow effect, even if he's endorsed by them. I think there's less people there thinking "I have to use a small combo from Polytone to get that Ray Brown sound" . Now mr Brown hasn't been around since 2002 (methinks?) but you know by and large what I am getting at...

We should see any "what's the best number of stacks for metal" thread any time soon... ha ha.

Yes, Ray Brown passed in '02. Luckily I had the pleasure of hearing him live in quartet setting. That man was pure class & tone.

And as far as the "dude had four stacks" scenario, I can only say...

 

[Honch]

The thing is the people who lug them around. If you had to skip lugging them around like your roadies, you would love to be playing big rigs too. It's the same these days in keyboard. The keyboardist made the final concession to that even if any B3 clones and accompanying Leslie simulators isn't really close to the real things, they are so "close-but-no-cigar" that the reducing in weight and unreliable maintenance of real ones isn't really worth that small differences in sound, to have any excuse lugging it around the world. Same with grand pianos. They use digital Rolands today. Even if it's not close. But very few lugs around grand pianos, they hire it as a backline at each gig, and requires a tuning/piano tuner guy to go with it. I only know of Lyle Mays of Pat Metheny Group that still lugged his modified grand piano around the world tours. Together with the rest of his rack, rig and gear, which must've been expensive.

You can think for yourself than in the keyboard world, there's fewer and fewer bringing real grand pianos/Hammond B3 organ around when touring. The convenience of digital and lightweight technology DO comes closer each year, to the extent that keyboardists don't really mind it anymore. Since it's live and maybe outdoors, they do favor IN TUNE instruments in favor of dodgy temperamental tuning or other deviances. Chances are the the digital lightweight stuff holds up better in the long run. And whatever sound difference there are, no one in the audience can tell anymore. However, in studio, and maybe classical recitals (which are completely acoustic) they're still in use, grand pianos that is.

It's the same with bass rigs these days. FOH soundmen don't want to know about too low frequencies occuring on stage anyway. The leak into other mics and it gets harder to get any decent sound at all on all the other frequencies. I can tell you for now, with all the IEM monitor concerts I've been to (vocalists not only bassists) at the same venue, and the same band, the sound out at the front have always been better than with onstage wedge and side fill monitors. Considerably better. Canadian prog stalwarts Rush finally made the decision, and instead of getting "the dough" from using dummy stacks, they did a total send up of all the stack things and big rigs, and ridiculed it all by placing washing machines, vending machines on stage, just to poke fun at this. Their drums it's what's acoustic on stage. Rest is through IEM. Geddys sound is still as good as ever. No doubt, that the dryers, and washing machines weighs a ton too...

Here's your big bass rig...

Works and sounds best at 90 degrees celsius... without shrinking...no bleaching gives him that growl.

 

[Honch]

And I don't even ever knew if Ray Brown used Polytone or not. I think he couldn't give a ...

 

[Honch]

SunnO)))) keeps at least four stacks...bet that it's neither for show nor dough.

Read their "philosophy" about their directions to any FOH soundman below. You have to Zoom it in...

 

[Honch]

.. dude..more than four stacks !?!?? ...way no way man...

 

[Honch]

2) That said, the Class D amps have now gone a fair way up the development curve, and offer a very attractive combination of cost, performance, and portability. Looking at market share, Class D's are making inroads into the bass amp overall market. So, you could say that a smaller fraction of players are choosing the big tube gear.

People often forgets it's not only about this. While NEODYNIUM speaker cabs still takes up the same kind of space their weight is reduced by 2/3 more often than not. It's maybe not so much about the actual dimensions as it is about their weight. If someone had to lug around a small dimension digital grand piano that weighted as much as the real thing no one would do that either. It's moreso the weight than actual dimensions.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah, of course it's dough. But mainly for show, since this ain't that much part of any other world than hard rock, metal and the like. Mind you if it is for dough, it's for show for most. Like you yourself made the statement "dude had four stacks..." and then - if a malleable teenager - goes to think that they must've been real, so I really HAVE to use that many to get the same sound as - fill in the blank - has. It's an evil circle. A small Polytune at a jazz gig with Ray Brown on upright doesn't get the same wow effect, even if he's endorsed by them. I think there's less people there thinking "I have to use a small combo from Polytone to get that Ray Brown sound" . Now mr Brown hasn't been around since 2002 (methinks?) but you know by and large what I am getting at...

Seems to assume that people are really really stupid, no? I think kids can see the tremendous variety of gear their favorite acts use and make up their own minds whether they need 4 stacks or not.

And I don't even ever knew if Ray Brown used Polytone or not. I think he couldn't give a ...

Ray Brown always used a Polytone amp when I'd see him on Merv Griffin.

 

[Honch]

See there then we sorted that out. Polytone thing. Yes, some people, some youngsters within a certain genre are really really stupid, yes. IME so far. There may exist others of course, and I think it does, but I have yet to see them. Heavy metal, hard rock is moreso superficial and strutting about gear, moreso than any other genre as it is for now. As they grow up, that silliness diminishes.

 

[JimmyM]

See there then we sorted that out. Polytone thing. Yes, some people, some youngsters within a certain genre are really really stupid, yes. IME so far. There may exist others of course, and I think it does, but I have yet to see them. Heavy metal, hard rock is moreso superficial and strutting about gear, moreso than any other genre as it is for now. As they grow up, that silliness diminishes.

 

[Wisebass]

Are the big amps history?

Yes they are history, they wrote history and they still continue to write history!!!

Class D amps come very close to the sound of the legendary amps....

well very close is not history!!!!


may the bass be with you

Wise(b)ass

 

[nomeX]

Downstairs Rig for Bass and Guitar

• nomeX
• Jul 6, 2017

Biamped rig: Peavey Max Preamp, Classic 60/60, Peavey 410e and GO MBE 212b

Fender Super Twin...

Worth the weight for me. I will buy any SVT CL, Classic 400, Fender PS, SUNN, for $100. They are so history. I don't have any of the big amps, but I enjoy my 160-180 watt tube amps. I can always slave them if need be.

 

[zontar]

If you want to own them, use them, transport them, etc---go for it.

I prefer smaller & lighter amps for practical reasons--and they sound pretty good too.

 

[el murdoque]

I've had a look around for an SVT II pro for quite a while now.
I'd like to pair it with a barefaced 4x10 cab.
But here's the thing: In my area, unless you are a rockstar, you get a DI on stage.
If you insist on a mic'ed bass cab, the FOH guy will usually place a mic in front of your cab,
taking a DI nonetheless and using 100% DI signal.

I use IEM most of the time and recently, i bring as little amplification as possible - sometimes just my bass and my board.

So a 40kgs tube amp head is, in my case, quite often more heavy than handy.

 

[Plastalmonus]

I'll take my Orange AD200 and 2x15 stack until the day comes I can't lift it anymore... then I'll hire someone to do it for me