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Are the big amps history?

In this day of PA support that works down to 30 or 40 Hz, why would anyone need a big amp on stage?


It would be awesome to play in a band that would use the P.A. to cover my bass, where I could use in-ears or a small bass amp/cabinet for my needs.

When I was steadily gigging, the only time I'd need a big amp setup would be when i played large outdoor gigs, or for big clubs. The vast majority of my gigs were in clubs that didn't have their own P.A. system, and pretty much every band I played in wouldn't put my bass through the P.A., so my amp provided the bass for me as my monitor, and for the band's mix 98% of the time.

I could get away with a pair of 1-12" cabinets in the bands I played with that kept their individual volumes down, but for the bands that played louder, I'd need bigger speaker cabinets to provide more volume to get the job done. Because I did a lot of freelancing, I went modular with my speaker cabinets because I had to schlep my gear in and out by myself. - Heck, most of the bands I played with as a regular member would complain about helping me move my amp gear, so having a modular speaker cabinet setup was a plus.

This being said, if I always had load in and load out help, I'd happily use an SVT with an 8-10" cabinet for bigger stages/rooms where I didn't have P.A. support, because I like how having a big amp behind me feels.

My biggest speaker cabinet consists of a pair of 2-12" cabinets and I power them with a lead sled stereo power amp, so even though I don't currently own a big all tube head, I'm still schlepping a pretty heavy rack which contains my power amp and a preamp.

I do have a class D head, which is awesome, sounds great, and using in tandem with my pair of 1-12" cabinets is a breeze to transport, but for gigs that require big volume I'll always go to my rackmounted setup and my bigger cabinets.

So there's my situation and 2 cents.
 
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And I've seen guys with all sorts of fancy gear and pedals who flat out wail and sound awesome, and I've seen guys with a beat up bass and simple combo amp that sound like crap. The musician makes the gear, true enough, and that's why your comparison is a false one.

Here's the deal...bigger is better for bass...always. Notice I didn't say "sometimes"...I said "always." It is physics. This is why people who buy a little cab usually end up buying two of them, and this is why tiny little PA systems with tiny little undersized subs are rarely seen on pro gigs. That is not to say little stuff can't sound good...it can. But even the best and most efficient little stuff always sounds better when it's doubled up...always.

I play both sides of the fence on this one...at 56, I've come to appreciate a nice sounding small rig because I can't do a string of one-nighters lugging an SVT and 810 to all of them, and one-nighters are about all I play anymore. I also have gigs where there are line of sight issues that require something smaller as not to block off the audience's view or hide people onstage behind me. But would I rather have the SVT and 810? Always. It just plain sounds better than my small rigs, even if I'm playing at a low volume that my small gear can easily handle. That's why I still lug it to my gigs on occasion, and it's what I always request when I do a fly gig and have to rent an amp. It has sod-all to do with impressing an audience with visuals and everything to do with creating an environment of comfort for myself onstage. The look is just a bonus. But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself to assume otherwise, knock yourself out. Just realize I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, least of all other bass players.
Heavy as it was I regret selling my SVT. LOVE my Rumble 500, miss the SVT. That sound.
 
I am a full on believer in the Class D stuff. Last weekend we opened for the Marshall Tucker band, and they had a blue line SVT rig ready to roll, and suggested that I use that. I was cooperative and got through the set OK, but there was nothing about it that would make me ever consider going back to that sort of thing. So I guess those sort of thing are dead to me. (PS- the MTB is some of the nicest guys you'll ever encounter)
 
I guess if you have to rely on the visual aspect of your gear to impress the audience.
Maybe that's why KISS never made it big. In case you haven't heard, it's SHOW business. ;)
I've seen guys with all kinds of fancy gear, a plethora of FX pedals, etc. that didn't know what to do with it all, versus the guy with a beat up bass and simple combo amp that can play circles around the average poser.
True, but exponentially more often, it's the other way around. I don't know any professional musicians that use crap gear, although I'm sure there is one somewhere.

In answer to the original question, No big amps aren't history.
 
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In terms of audio theory the nyquist theorem states that frequencies represented and reproduced are half of the sampling rate (as humans Weare not capable of hearing the extended frequency range represented by higher sampling rates cats and dogs yes but us no). Beyond that higher bit depth and sampling rate by end product produce a larger dynamic range that is able to be used (which doesn't matter because everything now a days is mastered into 0 dbfs or +1 to 2 dbfs dependent upon how their adda clips at higher dbfs levels some are designed to meet the modern standard to run higher positive dbfs signals and more gracefully clip them). Not only that recordings are now produced with the least amount of dynamic range in recording history. There is no real discernable difference with 44.1 k 24 bit versus 96 k 24 bit as long as the bit rate is the same there will be no major differences. Now if you are talking processing such as plugins and whether they are processed in 32 bit or 64 bit and fold back down to 24 bit then yes there can be some subtle differences here especially with dsp based plug ins versus native and whether it is running in floating point mix engines versus fixed point. All cds that are produced start out recording in 24 bit then are dithered down to 16 to accommodate cd format. So in theory the whole 96k versus 44 1k debate is moot. Go over to gearslutz.com and try to make those statements and see what people have to say. This debate has raged on forever and even the best ears in the industry cannot tell the difference between 192k 24 bit and 44.1k 24 bit. You are not downloading music at 24 bit most of the time it just doesn't happen. Just saying. I get all of your points and while they are good points the issue becomes there is no real discernable benefit unless you are talking bit depth. I understand where you are coming from I am an audio guy after all and have been for many years. The subject has been debated to ad naueseum. Just go research it over at gearslutz.com where some of the world's best engineers hang (also some huge hacks but if yiu know how to Seperate the real guys from the hacks it's a great resource)

Not trying to start a fight I just don't want people to think a higher sample rate is superior when 44 1 or 48k is actually just as good sounding dependent upon bit depth.
 
I wonder if roadie downsizing is also a contributing factor to the shrinking of backlines. It seems that back in the heyday of big stacks (late 60's-80s) even bands with modest followings had at least a couple of roadies. Nowadays, the folks I know that tour might bring one extra person to be tour manager/driver/merch guy/sorta roadie, if they bring a second person it's usually a soundperson and it seems like only the biggest arena-level acts travel with dedicated roadies anymore. I guess it's gotten harder to pay people in drugs and booze.
 
tina-fey-eye-roll.jpg



And I've seen guys with all sorts of fancy gear and pedals who flat out wail and sound awesome, and I've seen guys with a beat up bass and simple combo amp that sound like crap. The musician makes the gear, true enough, and that's why your comparison is a false one.

Here's the deal...bigger is better for bass...always. Notice I didn't say "sometimes"...I said "always." It is physics. This is why people who buy a little cab usually end up buying two of them, and this is why tiny little PA systems with tiny little undersized subs are rarely seen on pro gigs. That is not to say little stuff can't sound good...it can. But even the best and most efficient little stuff always sounds better when it's doubled up...always.

I play both sides of the fence on this one...at 56, I've come to appreciate a nice sounding small rig because I can't do a string of one-nighters lugging an SVT and 810 to all of them, and one-nighters are about all I play anymore. I also have gigs where there are line of sight issues that require something smaller as not to block off the audience's view or hide people onstage behind me. But would I rather have the SVT and 810? Always. It just plain sounds better than my small rigs, even if I'm playing at a low volume that my small gear can easily handle. That's why I still lug it to my gigs on occasion, and it's what I always request when I do a fly gig and have to rent an amp. It has sod-all to do with impressing an audience with visuals and everything to do with creating an environment of comfort for myself onstage. The look is just a bonus. But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself to assume otherwise, knock yourself out. Just realize I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, least of all other bass players.
Ladies and gentleman, I present to you, the voice of sound reason.
 
think of this, but Ampeg 8x10s instead plus dummy heads... it's all visual props, and backdrops:

WallofDoom.jpg


they look "big" too don't they...

Odds are very high that it's not for "show"; it's for "dough". Whatever those dummy stacks say on the front, its most likely that company has an agreement with somebody; the artist, management company, promoter. etc., to display the brand on stage. Seems the artist prefers Engl, as he has one running and a backup on standby off stage, front and center in the photo.
This is extremely common, one brand showin' and another brand gowin'. The people paying the endorsement agreement don't care, costs them WAY less than fronting out $10K worth of sell-able real gear to get the snot beat out of, and anybody (who gives a rats *ss) in the audience left the show and told their player buddies "Dude had FOUR full -fill in the blank- stacks man!!!".
Also, not carrying the real deal has a positive effect on the fiscal liability of a tour's cartage and labor costs.
And... that's ($) the whole point. ;)
 
Is your computer then made of 0's and 1's by 0's and 1's?

What good would you have of a bunch of something and nothing ordered in specific patterns without some kind of analog media to store and represent them to you in a meaningful way?

And finally, is time continuous to you or made up by a series of points in between which there is absolutely nothing?

This is just becoming more absurd with each post. Enjoy the book! :thumbsup:
 
I sold all my Class D heads and small cabs because I decided big is back. Gots me a 2x15. Our inner self-hatred is really why we play and being old and deaf w lower back problems is part of the craft.
I wish I had the room and the cash and the strength of youth for a Heritage rig or my old Sunn gear, (which I sold years ago and sorely miss).
My D800 and 2x115 cabs are awesome, but I still wish I had either or both tube rigs to reminisce over (and gig with if I had assistance with the moving, and I would in a heartbeat). Both great . . . . just different. Lets face it. Outside of their own awesome sound, they are a trophy of many of our younger years.
I think there is an eagle scout badge for schlepping a fridge rig. Can't remember how many years it takes to get it though. :)
 
Nope. They're not going away. Selling fewer? Sure. Going away? No.

I'm 36, have an SVT2PRO and an Ashdown CTM300. I play them through an SWR Goliath SR 610. All heavy gear. When I got tired of strong-arming the heads (really I just didn't want to slip and fall on the ice while carrying one - Wisconsin winters are great) I bought a collapsible hand truck from Harbor Freight for $20. That, plus a $.99 bungee cord make transporting the heads super easy. The cab, like all big cabs, has wheels and rolls just fine.

In my weird little sub-genre of original music the majority of bass and guitar players use tube rigs. The sound can't be reproduced by modern gear. The audience expects to see all-tube or nearly all-tube backlines on stage. We almost never have PA support for anything other than vocals.

To each their own, but don't think for a second that big tube rigs are going away.
 
Nope. They're not going away. Selling fewer? Sure. Going away? No.

I'm 36, have an SVT2PRO and an Ashdown CTM300. I play them through an SWR Goliath SR 610. All heavy gear. When I got tired of strong-arming the heads (really I just didn't want to slip and fall on the ice while carrying one - Wisconsin winters are great) I bought a collapsible hand truck from Harbor Freight for $20. That, plus a $.99 bungee cord make transporting the heads super easy. The cab, like all big cabs, has wheels and rolls just fine.

In my weird little sub-genre of original music the majority of bass and guitar players use tube rigs. The sound can't be reproduced by modern gear. The audience expects to see all-tube or nearly all-tube backlines on stage. We almost never have PA support for anything other than vocals.

To each their own, but don't think for a second that big tube rigs are going away.



Mmmmmm. CTM 300!

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I have the "little" CTM 100) it KILLS I tell you!:roflmao:
 
I am not talking about Mp3's here.

My sound interface is capable of recording in 24 Bit 128 Khz sample rate, in that aspect and taking into account how old CD technology is by now, I would call CD quality inferior.

Technology based on digital systems do not age well.

Professional studio recording standard is 24 Bit 96 Khz, not speaking of that most customers chose to just buy the Mp3 version anyway, or that maybe even the original masters are not being made available in higher quality than what a CD is capable of reproducing, unless it come out on on vinyl, or is available on that media in a true analog version where there have been no digital downgrading of the source involved.

With good equipment to reproduce audio the difference between CD quality and 24 Bit 96 Khz quality will be almost as apparent as the difference between 128 Kb/s Mp3 quality and 16 Bit 44,1 Khz Cd quality.

So yes CD quality is very much inferior to today's digital standards, and digital technology will always have inherent limitations making it inferior to analog systems of similar quality in the aspect of reproducing information that is true and accurate to the source.

Analog technology by definition reproduce all the information and subtleties of the original source, in theory at least a 1:1 relationship, only limited by quality of the hardware, digital technology on the other hand will always be an approximation or emulation basically made up of 0's and 1's.

Digital equipment will in other words always be limited by how fast it can pick up and process the information coming form the source, cause in a digital system information will with 100% certainty be left out, maybe not on a level that humans consciously are able to perceive if we are talking recent digital standards, but non the less it will miss a lot of information.

That can be useful in some situations, sometimes you would want a system to not to pick up what would be cocidered irrelevant information in the context.

In the very nature of how digital systems work always having to shut on and off, basically everything a digital system reproduce will be split up in small chunks of information, hence why we call it resolution, with analog technology the flow of information is unbroken and you will have all of it, again theoretically, which means the resolution will basically be infinite.

Pictures are a nice and easy way to understand this:

Digital pictures will have a limit of how much you can zoom in depending on how many squares the given digital system is capable of reducing the source to.

Analog pictures will only be limited by the quality of the lens used to capture the light that makes up the picture.

At this point it is still not possible to make a digital camera that is capable of splitting the information it receives up in so small parts that it is more sufficient at reproducing a accurate image then the most clear and powerful lens we can make are at picking up light.

Digital systems no doubt are much cheaper, flexible and predictable though.

And to have a system that can reuse information and easily can be programmed to handle almost whatever kind of information in whatever way you may wish just by lining up the right sequence of something and nothing while not easily being disturbed by irrelevant information, instead of having to physically create systems made from scratch each time it has to take new assignment or task, is no doubt very practical, but it doesn't make it better in every aspect, far from.

Analog is still better at being true to the source material, even if that means picking up irrelevant information in the context such as "noise" from the system it self.

Maybe a bit like the difference between playing with Lego and clay.

Both have their obvious strength and weaknesses, but one thing is for sure if you put clay into a mold you will get something that looks like what formed the mold almost exactly, if using Lego blocks, well not that much.

Almost every one of your points is a gross oversimplification. It seems like you're going the right direction, but with the lack of nuance comes hyperbole. [ex: analog photos have many more limitations than simply the quality of the glass, such as ISO/grain size and the art-science of processing techniques; your statement is absolutely incorrect. Depending on who is talking, digital surpassed 35mm photos around the 10 megapixel range, and money talks quality. Personal experience: film sucks. It's expensive, wasteful, and time consuming before you can even see what you've made]

When talking audio, you stated that analog is more accurate to the source material even if if you are picking up system noise -- what? System noise is adding an inherent baseline of NOISE to a capture. Yes, digital is limited by the amount of sampling, but that's why we can increase bit depth and sampling rate: 24-bits deep and ninety-six thousand samples per second. That's the entire point of increasing depth and rate: to provide more headroom and accuracy.

The assumption that digital (audio, video, photo, etc) is not a literal, 100% capture of the source is technically correct. To then assert that analog mediums are literal, you are wrong. It was not until the last few years that digital techs across the board were good enough to meet and surpass the quality of analog, and there is plenty of debate on that subject.

"Analog technology by definition reproduce all the information and subtleties of the original source..."
No, analog by definition records the source onto a physical format and states nothing about the accuracy of recording.

"In the very nature of how digital systems work always having to shut on and off..."
No, that "on and off" is a simplification of binary coding. Nothing more.

I need some coffee.

Edit: after reading some other comments on this thread, I realized I spent way too much effort on this reply. But hey, I'm on the clock.
 
i know most pros still use the the big guys but why are the big expensive amps not getting sold? Too heavy? Good deals out there on the big iron..
Regarding your questions:
1) Big amps are still getting sold. There are some very boutique tube amp builders who seem to be doing enough business to keep themselves afloat. Reeves etc. The big tubes still work really well; and many bassists prefer them.

2) That said, the Class D amps have now gone a fair way up the development curve, and offer a very attractive combination of cost, performance, and portability. Looking at market share, Class D's are making inroads into the bass amp overall market. So, you could say that a smaller fraction of players are choosing the big tube gear.

3) if you find a good deal on an amp that works for you, then buy it.

Regarding some of the further discussions about analog and digital technology in this thread: gosh, I wish folks could just be nice to each other. If someone prefers what comes off of a stylus on a vinyl track to digital files, then great; they should just use that equipment. I'm not sure that the comparison of silver emulsion photography or vinyl records to their digital counterparts is relevant or teaches anything; except that you can see where those markets have gone. Getting into technical discussions, when the folks involved lack the appropriate training to hold that kind of discussion is laughable. And, further, making arguments which essentially imply that my ears or eyes are better than your ears or eyes, therefore my conclusions are superior is pathetic and insulting. I suggest we just be nice to each other. If someone really prefers the fidelity of their 78rpm projected from that 1923 gramophone, then yay; no justification is required. But, please don't waste time on here criticizing someone else's views to support your own. That's flawed logic. Just sayin'
 
I'd love to have a good tube head and also have a big cabinet that makes my pant legs flap. But I just don't want to carry them. I've got high power 4-pound heads and quality lightweight cabinets that combine to give me sound I like and also provide enough sound for my needs.

I'd never tell anyone the old school tube amps and big cabinets that move massive amounts of air aren't worth it. But the modern stuff makes me happy so I use it. It's great that there are lots of choices out there to fit just about any preference. Pick what works for you and play the hell out of it.
 
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Regarding your questions:
1) Big amps are still getting sold. There are some very boutique tube amp builders who seem to be doing enough business to keep themselves afloat. Reeves etc. The big tubes still work really well; and many bassists prefer them.

2) That said, the Class D amps have now gone a fair way up the development curve, and offer a very attractive combination of cost, performance, and portability. Looking at market share, Class D's are making inroads into the bass amp overall market. So, you could say that a smaller fraction of players are choosing the big tube gear.

3) if you find a good deal on an amp that works for you, then buy it.

Regarding some of the further discussions about analog and digital technology in this thread: gosh, I wish folks could just be nice to each other. If someone prefers what comes off of a stylus on a vinyl track to digital files, then great; they should just use that equipment. I'm not sure that the comparison of digital photography or vinyl records to their digital counterparts is relevant or teaches anything; except that you can see where those markets have gone. Getting into technical discussions, when the folks involved lack the appropriate training to hold that kind of discussion is laughable. And, further, making arguments which essentially imply that my ears or eyes are better than your ears or eyes, therefore my conclusions are superior is pathetic and insulting. I suggest we just be nice to each other. If someone really prefers the fidelity of their 78rpm projected from that 1923 gramophone, then yay; no justification is required. But, please don't waste time on here criticizing someone else's views to support your own. That's flawed logic. Just sayin'

No. If he had just said "I like analog over digital" then I'd be like aight that's cool whatevs, just as this entire thread/website is like "yeah man I like toobs but class D is just soooo easy". But no, he said a bunch of factually incorrect things so I had to burn time to tell him why he's wrong. I mean, it is the internet.

::goes off to get coffee::