Are we just getting too soft?

[Munjibunga]

Because you're just a sack of meat and viscera?

Exaaaaactly.

 

[One Drop]

It's frustrating because its entirely possible to actually know how they work out, but people are just apathetic.

Or worse they have strong opinions based on gut feelings or 'common sense', or handed down truisms which have not necessarily ever been true in fact.

 

[Jazz Ad]

They are, as compared to a few decades ago. Nowadays being a jailbird has become an occupation. It beats having to work, if you're not inclined to working.

I don't know who told you people don't work in prison. It isn't true.
The law says that prison is meant to be a privation of liberty, not hell on Earth.
Most people in prisons are badly trated mentally diseased persons, rather than criminals at heart or lazy slouches.

 

[One Drop]

I don't know who told you people don't work in prison. It isn't true.
The law says that prison is meant to be a privation of liberty, not hell on Earth.
Most people in prisons are badly trated mentally diseased persons, rather than criminals at heart or lazy slouches.

Very good point, and one that ties on with the high number of people being incarcerated for drug offenses, as they often use drugs to self-medicate, and are especially prone to getting arrested if they are not wealthy enough to get private care and prescribed medication and supervision.

I think it's telling that those who have taken string positions here about how soft we are, how prisons are too soft, how harsh punishment deters crime, refuse to a man to offer a shred of evidence to support both the trends they describe, and the conclusions they draw from these unsupported trends.

I am not so sure of my opinions and many of them have changed over the years when I've been exposed to contrary information and evidence that I was mistaken or have misunderstood a situation or jumped to conclusions. Once you realize that you have been very wrong once about something you really strongly believe in, a real door opens and you'll never look at your own opinions, received wisdom and handed down 'facts' with same certainty again. The hard part is to keep your mind open to new information after you have taken a 'side', which is why I would really like someone who disagrees with me here to step up and have an actual discussion, instead of hit an run remarks, sarcasm and a complete refusal to even engage in single remark offered by the many posters who have obviously looked into the situation themselves and made an effort at separating truth from fantasy. It makes me realize how much we tend to believe in the things that suit our world view, and ignore evidence and positions that do not.

It is a very human trait and it is well understood by the manipulators of public opinion.

 

[Immigrant]

I've frequented many correctional institutions; a couple as a resident, a few to visit my constantly reoffending former girlfriend, and a bunch to take AA meeting to inmates.

I'll never forget watching a female inmate trying to figure out which cinder block in the wall was the way out of there. She had severe mental health issues.

There is nowhere to care for a large segment of society these days since many institutions closed in the mid-to-late '80s. Yes, it's just an anecdote, but it's a fine example of how just the opposite of SOFT we've become in regards to prisons. They've become human warehouses.

Maybe a big chunk of the problem can be blamed on directions the US has taken since the '80s, keeping wages stagnant, outsourcing living-wage jobs, etc etc, all the things we can't discuss here for free. Gotta pay to voice that.

Maybe those who claim repeat offending is caused by cushy prison conditions ought to look at rates of unemployment as well as the percentage of the population on assistance and compare that to the rate of reincarceration. Yes, there is a VERY SMALL portion of the prison population who are more comfortable in prison. I've known a few. But they are hardly the majority.

 

[neckdive]

I am not so sure of my opinions and many of them have changed over the years when I've been exposed to contrary information and evidence that I was mistaken or have misunderstood a situation or jumped to conclusions. Once you realize that you have been very wrong once about something you really strongly believe in, a real door opens and you'll never look at your own opinions, received wisdom and handed down 'facts' with same certainty again. The hard part is to keep your mind open to new information after you have taken a 'side'... .

It makes me realize how much we tend to believe in the things that suit our world view, and ignore evidence and positions that do not.

This is an excellent point!

Questioning your own firm and long-held positions can be a humbling experience but it can also expose the real truth as to who or what has been influencing you over the years.

Beliefs also tend to be pre-separated into distinct camps. If you strongly believe X then you must also strongly believe all of the other set of beliefs that indivduals who also believe in X.

We're all played by a binary 'Us' vs. 'Them' system.

 

[One Drop]

I've frequented many correctional institutions; a couple as a resident, a few to visit my constantly reoffending former girlfriend, and a bunch to take AA meeting to inmates.

I'll never forget watching a female inmate trying to figure out which cinder block in the wall was the way out of there. She had severe mental health issues.

There is nowhere to care for a large segment of society these days since many institutions closed in the mid-to-late '80s. Yes, it's just an anecdote, but it's a fine example of how just the opposite of SOFT we've become in regards to prisons. They've become human warehouses.

Maybe a big chunk of the problem can be blamed on directions the US has taken since the '80s, keeping wages stagnant, outsourcing living-wage jobs, etc etc, all the things we can't discuss here for free. Gotta pay to voice that.

Maybe those who claim repeat offending is caused by cushy prison conditions ought to look at rates of unemployment as well as the percentage of the population on assistance and compare that to the rate of reincarceration. Yes, there is a VERY SMALL portion of the prison population who are more comfortable in prison. I've known a few. But they are hardly the majority.

Great to hear from someone with personal experience.

You also brought up some other ones that I did not want to to keep the discussion from lockdown territory and because of their tendency to stray into political discussion. This relates to your point about camps where positions tend to align. This never made sense to me because I have never known a party or movement with who I agree with on every issue.

 

[blue4]

Whenever another country's experiences are brought up the inevitable answer for those who are against the idea being discussed is to claim American exceptionalism. The last time I looked Americans were also human beings who react to outside influences and in a similar way to the rest of humanity.

Furthermore, the example I give are relevant because they show the results of change in policy in those countries and so illustrate the effects of a different kinds of laws land attitudes to a problem. But I doubt the people claiming there is no point in comparing have even bothered looking into it because they are already convinced the US has nothing to learn from anywhere else (even though many of these progressive ideas originated in the USA but only get tried out in other countries).

But there is enough information to be studied by the results of different policy and practice state to state- this gets ignored in every rebuttal because it is not so easy to dismiss with a wave of a hand and a claim that comparison with anywhere else is pointless.

This is absolutely true. The Europeans have no problem looking at what works in America and copying it if they need to. Australia, Japan, Europe they all do some things better than we do and vice versa. All multinational corporations take what works from each place and applies it to other divisions if they can, yet those same people will rage against the idea in the political world. I've never understood it.

 

[blue4]

I've frequented many correctional institutions; a couple as a resident, a few to visit my constantly reoffending former girlfriend, and a bunch to take AA meeting to inmates.

I'll never forget watching a female inmate trying to figure out which cinder block in the wall was the way out of there. She had severe mental health issues.

There is nowhere to care for a large segment of society these days since many institutions closed in the mid-to-late '80s. Yes, it's just an anecdote, but it's a fine example of how just the opposite of SOFT we've become in regards to prisons. They've become human warehouses.

Maybe a big chunk of the problem can be blamed on directions the US has taken since the '80s, keeping wages stagnant, outsourcing living-wage jobs, etc etc, all the things we can't discuss here for free. Gotta pay to voice that.

Maybe those who claim repeat offending is caused by cushy prison conditions ought to look at rates of unemployment as well as the percentage of the population on assistance and compare that to the rate of reincarceration. Yes, there is a VERY SMALL portion of the prison population who are more comfortable in prison. I've known a few. But they are hardly the majority.

Very true. I'm always surprised by how many people have their heads in the sand regarding wages, pensions being yanked away from retirees, etc and the effect that has on every facet of life.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I don't know who told you people don't work in prison. It isn't true.

I see them cleaning trash up alongside of the road.
They do work, but they're saved from the more difficult job of looking for work on the outside.

 

[One Drop]

I see them cleaning trash up alongside of the road.
They do work, but they're saved from the more difficult job of looking for work on the outside.

That's a new one!

 

[Killed_by_Death]

You've never seen prisoners collecting trash?

 

[Jazz Ad]

I see them cleaning trash up alongside of the road.
They do work, but they're saved from the more difficult job of looking for work on the outside.

Did you know that it's the only legal form of slavery allowed by your constitution? 13th amendment.
Employers of convicts pay very low wages of course (to the state, not the prisoners) but also avoid most work regulations, some of them essential like medical checkups, substance testing or even chemical hazards in the case of drug testing.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

One of them escaped here not long ago, from a trash pickup detail.
It took them a few hours to track him down.

 

[One Drop]

You've never seen prisoners collecting trash?

I meant the idea that they are 'saved' from the difficult task of finding work, inferring that they prefer to be in prison because it's easier to pick up trash on the inside than finding work on the outside. We are descending into the comic here, how would you even begin to make assumptions like that?

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I do it all the time. It's my thing!

Looking for work is the hardest job you'll ever have.

 

[One Drop]

One of them escaped here not long ago, from a trash pickup detail.
It took them a few hours to track him down.

I guess he didn't want the cushy job all that much, eh?

 

[Killed_by_Death]

Yeah, out of 10 guys, one wanted to escape.

 

[One Drop]

I do it all the time. It's my thing!

Looking for work is the hardest job you'll ever have.

I hate it, but I've been lucky to have chosen a profession where there is always work, and I've benefitted from unemployment insurance the one time I had trouble during a career change.

But finding a job that pays a living wage should not be so hard, and if it is then society has failed it's citizens, especially if getting the schooling or training for a better paying job is also so difficult.

 

[One Drop]

Yeah, out of 10 guys, one wanted to escape.

No, one was desperate enough to attempt the nearly impossible and risk more time or harsher treatment inside to get away.

See, two can play at inventing motives and and making stuff up about random anecdotes to make a point.