Are we just getting too soft?

[jmattbassplaya]

The issue is how long it takes to mature now. Kids used to leave home at 18 and never look back. Today, the percentage of kids who don't leave until their mid-20s is far higher, and they are less ready for the world around them than the 18 years used to be.

That hypothetical 29 year old is where a guy who is 21 was 30 years ago.

Again, it's not the fault of the kids, it's the fault of the parents. Entitlement is a learned behaviour. And it's one that snowballs from generation to generation.

A decent portion of the population doesn't enter the workforce full-time until they're 23 years old these days due to continued education. That alone speaks for part of the reason people mature at a slower rate. I don't disagree with entitlement being a learned behavior, either. People are quick to judge the younger generations without considering who raised them

 

[One Drop]

These "debates" are just stupid and a waste of time and energy, but since it's Christmas I'll share the two ways to end crime.

1. Make everything legal, nothing is illegal, therefore there are no crimes.

2. The extinction of the human race. No people = no crimes.

Anything short of 1 or 2 will continue to have crimes committed by humans. That's just the way it is.

So you think discussing facts and the efficacy of government policy is useless?

You think people will behave exactly the same no matter what those policies are? If you believe this than your argument that harsh prison sentences will deter crime falls apart instantly.

These discussions are not only useful but necessary in a democracy.

And I will link you some interesting factual information about different penal systems, but why should I even bother if your mind is already made up and you think the discussion is useless.

It also begs the question of why did you bother participating and giving an opinion if you think the exercise is useless.

Would you prefer everyone just give their gut feelings and highly exaggerate examples and anecdotes and not engage each others' opinions?

 

[One Drop]

Taking that post literally was nothing short of silly. I never backtracked. I made up a ridiculously fictional story to make a point. No backtrack needed..... for people not being silly.

Edit: TB off topic used to be a place where we made light of serious subjects. Perhaps you haven't been around here long. Recently the fun police have moved in and everything one says is taken literally..... no matter how sarcastic or ridiculous.

Sorry for not behaving in a matter more to your liking. I don't participate in the silly threads, there are plenty of them around for you to enjoy.

This struck me as a serious topic and one that was not started as a humorous one.

Are you so soft you can't take the so-called serious police injecting facts into a thread?

BTW if you look back at the thread you might be surprised who took it in this direction to begin with. The Police only stopped by to address the crimes against fact and true experience by the actual real easily offended brigade.

 

[One Drop]

Yeah right...so present YOUR FACTS which prove me wrong.

Since you asked (albeit not very nicely). These are the results of simple google searches:

The US is interesting and useful to study as you have different laws in different states with different penalties and approaches to incarceration and rehabilitation.

An interesting article about rehabilitation vs. incarceration that also addresses your notion that 'nothing can help':

http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/rehab.aspx

More in a similar vein, and I'm trying to link sources that are not advocacy groups or that have an obvious agenda or bias:

Punishment Fails. Rehabilitation Works. - NYTimes.com

http://www.justicepolicy.org/upload...4-01_rep_mdtreatmentorincarceration_ac-dp.pdf

A respected source, and interestingly about Texas rethinking their heavily punitive model and high rates of incarceration:

Why Texas is closing prisons in favour of rehab - BBC News

Trends in the UK are following successful practices that have proven themselves in Scandinavia, and Switzerland:

The old debate: punish prisoners, or rehabilitate them?

An interesting slideshow that shows what we you might think was an old-fashioned way to deal with crime is in fact a quite recent, and spectacularly ineffective, way of dealing with crime.:

Rehabilitation vs. Punishment in Criminals

The above also explains how the war on crime was and is used to create a whole new class of criminals, exploding the number of people being incarcerated and the wider and long term effects of this policy.

How a country like Norway has fared with its rehabilitative based model, and a fascinating documentary of the retired Superintendent of Attica's visit to four of their jails:

Why Norway's prison system is so successful




The whole series (called 'The Norden') is fascinating, and enlightening, and worth sticking to even with parts being subtitled). The one called Police is really an eye-opener for most Americans who I have shown it to, and is very thought provoking in general. I think these documentaries are great because seeing real people confronting their own beliefs, and how they deal with new information and things that challenge their own experiences and show them different outcomes, is as interesting as the subjects themselves:



Switzerland has a similar attitude to incarceration and policing, and here people really do respect the Police, and the respect is earned and mutual between citizens and the enforcers of the law. There is a lot of debate about prison sentences being too short, but the results of the last overhaul and the further reduction in sentencing and more efforts at rehabilitation are being borne out by statistics, and the financial savings of such a system are being proven and appreciated as well. When a newspaper or politician tries to argue against current policy they inevitably make pure appeals to anecdote and single high profile cases, based strictly on emotion, because the facts are far too persuasive in favour of the opposite.

Does the death penalty deter crime?

Hard to argue with state-to-state comparisons, but murder rates are consistently higher in states with the death penalty:

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I'm hoping you approach this with an open mind, I promise you will be fascinated even if you don't change your mind about any of it.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

I don't know a single person, not one, who has gone to prison. The generation that I grew up with didn't break the law, because we were terrified of prison. We said, "yes sir" to the police, and respected their authority.

Today's kids, not so much.

Those college professors and homeowners: they're about your age?

 

[two fingers]

Sorry for not behaving in a matter more to your liking. I don't participate in the silly threads, there are plenty of them around for you to enjoy.

This struck me as a serious topic and one that was not started as a humorous one.

Are you so soft you can't take the so-called serious police injecting facts into a thread?

BTW if you look back at the thread you might be surprised who took it in this direction to begin with. The Police only stopped by to address the crimes against fact and true experience by the actual real easily offended brigade.

Nah. I don't get all that "offended". Iay disagree with you. But it takes a lot more than a stranger on a forum to really get me riled up.

Again, perhaps you haven't been around off topic a lot. Unless we're talking about a death in the family of someone here seriousness is usually not the order of the day. But, I guess things have changed.

After all, I did bring up getting arrested over coatism. Translation into literal language: People in my neighborhood are way too sensitive. Literally.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

The issue is how long it takes to mature now. Kids used to leave home at 18 and never look back. Today, the percentage of kids who don't leave until their mid-20s is far higher, and they are less ready for the world around them than the 18 years used to be.

That hypothetical 29 year old is where a guy who is 21 was 30 years ago.

Again, it's not the fault of the kids, it's the fault of the parents. Entitlement is a learned behaviour. And it's one that snowballs from generation to generation.

It's financially impossible for many people to move out so young today. The circumstances are nothing like when you were young.

 

[blue4]

Taking that post literally was nothing short of silly. I never backtracked. I made up a ridiculously fictional story to make a point. No backtrack needed..... for people not being silly.

Edit: TB off topic used to be a place where we made light of serious subjects. Perhaps you haven't been around here long. Recently the fun police have moved in and everything one says is taken literally..... no matter how sarcastic or ridiculous.

I've been here since 2013. There was nothing in your post to indicate humor or you making up a story that was not meant to be taken literally. It actually resembled many other exaggerated posts people pass off as fact on this website everyday. Just because I don't post a lot doesn't mean I don't frequent the off topic section.

What I think is silly... well never mind it's Xmas.

TBOT has pretty much looked like it does now, with the exception of the "frat boy" days.

If you feel as if I've taken your posts out of context I apologize. Merry Christmas, you big softie.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

More probably the fault of low workforce entry wages and high student university loans.

But I'm describing the real world and not a cartoon version.

I know many young people and they are no less mature, adventurous, or independent then they were in my youth.

Far more burdened though.

 

[One Drop]

Nah. I don't get all that "offended". Iay disagree with you. But it takes a lot more than a stranger on a forum to really get me riled up.

Again, perhaps you haven't been around off topic a lot. Unless we're talking about a death in the family of someone here seriousness is usually not the order of the day. But, I guess things have changed.

After all, I did bring up getting arrested over coatism. Translation into literal language: People in my neighborhood are way too sensitive. Literally.

I saw Off Topic go from pretty cool and mixed between serious and silly subjects to pure rank silliness all of the time, I think now t is back to a better mix. There is a whole other forum for humour, and if anyone wants to start a light-hearted thread they can do that. But often the direction a thread goes in towards being ore serious is not from the fact crowd but from those that have strong opinions they refuse to actually support.

Notice I had to provide facts to satisfy someone whose view was unsupported in itself by them.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

Taking that post literally was nothing short of silly. I never backtracked. I made up a ridiculously fictional story to make a point. No backtrack needed..... for people not being silly.

Edit: TB off topic used to be a place where we made light of serious subjects. Perhaps you haven't been around here long. Recently the fun police have moved in and everything one says is taken literally..... no matter how sarcastic or ridiculous.

The only point you made was that you're not much of a deep thinker. Hyperbole is fun, but being funny requires a lot more thought. As it stands that "joke" is wholly unoriginal and uninteresting.

 

[One Drop]

Nah. I don't get all that "offended". Iay disagree with you. But it takes a lot more than a stranger on a forum to really get me riled up.

Again, perhaps you haven't been around off topic a lot. Unless we're talking about a death in the family of someone here seriousness is usually not the order of the day. But, I guess things have changed.

After all, I did bring up getting arrested over coatism. Translation into literal language: People in my neighborhood are way too sensitive. Literally.

I get where you are coming from, I didn't mean you were upset.

I was just making a point that many times when people are railing against political correctness or the so-called industry of being offended, they themselves are just listing the things that offend them about the way things are described or the way other people think or behave. I hate when people on any side of an argument take it to extremes, and I also despise the trend towards finding offense where none reasonably exists, but I don't think examples cherry picked to prove a point is helpful or honest in itself.

Not referring to you, but the most vocal these days about political correctness and people being offended seem to be those that can least tolerate the changes in attitudes of the majority of their fellow citizens and who are the most offended by behaviour that doesn't sit well with their beliefs.

 

[Icemanaroonie]

Not referring to you, but the most vocal these days about political correctness and people being offended seem to be those that can least tolerate the changes in attitudes of the majority of their fellow citizens and who are the most offended by behaviour that doesn't sit well with their beliefs.

To me it feels as if by trying to become tolerant of everyone we've become tolerant of no one.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

To me it feels as if by trying to become tolerant of everyone we've become tolerant of no one.

Ah the old "intolerant of intolerance" line?

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

So you think discussing facts and the efficacy of government policy is useless?

You think people will behave exactly the same no matter what those policies are? If you believe this than your argument that harsh prison sentences will deter crime falls apart instantly.

These discussions are not only useful but necessary in a democracy.

And I will link you some interesting factual information about different penal systems, but why should I even bother if your mind is already made up and you think the discussion is useless.

It also begs the question of why did you bother participating and giving an opinion if you think the exercise is useless.

Would you prefer everyone just give their gut feelings and highly exaggerate examples and anecdotes and not engage each others' opinions?

You have the same problem as me where you expect people to be interested in learning.

 

[One Drop]

To me it feels as if by trying to become tolerant of everyone we've become tolerant of no one.

I only know that I like the way things are now better than when I was kid and people thought being openly racist, homophobic, and misogynistic was perfectly acceptable. I also think people are more or less tolerant based on their characters and upbringing, the behaviour of people in their own social circle, but I do certainly not believe overall we are less tolerant these days this we were over the last few generations. I think we tolerate the important things more: freedom of religion, other people's customs and food, homosexuality, etc. the difference is on how some groups have organized and how they present the issue itself, and also in it becoming a media subject in and of itself.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

I like this quote a lot:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
-Isaac Asimov

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

I only know that I like the way things are now better than when I was kid and people thought being openly racist, homophobic, and misogynistic was perfectly acceptable. I also think people are more or less tolerant based on their characters and upbringing, the behaviour of people in their own social circle, but I do certainly not believe overall we are less tolerant these days this we were over the last few generations. I think we tolerate the important things more: freedom of religion, other people's customs and food, homosexuality, etc. the difference is on how some groups have organized and how they present the issue itself, and also in it becoming a media subject in and of itself.

Ultimately "PC" just means "respecting people".

 

[One Drop]

You have the same problem as me where you expect people to be interested in learning.

Actually, I think most people are interested in learning when presented with ideas in an interesting and fair way. Too much debate these days takes place via memes and sound bites, and is lead by people with entrenched positions they do not want to examine. It doesn't help ordinary people, nor does the sad state of news reporting and documentary television in the US.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

People are a product of the environment they were raised in, and that includes their families, schools, and the society in which they were raised.

I read this article the other day. It makes a good point.

Helicopter Parenting & College Students’ Increased Neediness