Are we just getting too soft?

[Immigrant]

As for respect disappearing, it's been happening for about 15 years IMO, give or take. But it has fallen off a cliff for about the last 10 years.

That's what my dad said. And his dad. And the dad before him.

I'm pretty sure I heard William Wallace whisper that in Braveheart.

 

[tfer]

You are judging the other countries' prisons by stereotyping what you've learned from movies, "news", and word of mouth. Yes, there are prisons that are worse than those in the US, probably far worse.

But the US has a higher rate of incarceration than nearly every other country on the whole planet. And don't think the way we treated (or are treating) prisoners in Gitmo is really keeping with previous agreements, like that convention thing.

If you think I care whether anyone in Gitmo ever walks out again, you are sorely mistaken. If every prison in America was based on that model, incarceration rates would drop. Truly hardened criminals would still get arrested, but the casual guy who gets himself at the wrong place at the wrong time would avoid that place and time.

 

[tfer]

That's what my dad said. And his dad. And the dad before him.

I'm pretty sure I heard William Wallace whisper that in Braveheart.

I'm responsible for hiring a lot of people in their early 29s, and have been for 25 years. Kids today are the laziest, most entitled group in the history of western civilization. They usually grow out of it by the time they hit 30, but kids 30 years ago were far more mature and responsible by the time they were 20 than those hitting 30 are now.

I don't blame those kids, I blame the 'victim' society that we live in, where no actions have consequences in the early stages of life. Parents today want to be friends, rather than parents and the results have led us here.

 

[Immigrant]

I'm responsible for hiring a lot of people in their early 29s, and have been for 25 years. Kids today are the laziest, most entitled group in the history of western civilization. They usually grow out of it by the time they hit 30, but kids 30 years ago were far more mature and responsible by the time they were 20 than those hitting 30 are now.

I don't blame those kids, I blame the 'victim' society that we live in, where no actions have consequences in the early stages of life. Parents today want to be friends, rather than parents and the results have led us here.

And I'm saying that every generation has said that about the generation(s) after them. It's nothing new.

So if someone is 8 or 9 months into their 29th year, you won't hire them?

 

[tfer]

And I'm saying that every generation has said that about the generation(s) after them. It's nothing new.

So if someone is 8 or 9 months into their 29th year, you won't hire them?

The issue is how long it takes to mature now. Kids used to leave home at 18 and never look back. Today, the percentage of kids who don't leave until their mid-20s is far higher, and they are less ready for the world around them than the 18 years used to be.

That hypothetical 29 year old is where a guy who is 21 was 30 years ago.

Again, it's not the fault of the kids, it's the fault of the parents. Entitlement is a learned behaviour. And it's one that snowballs from generation to generation.

 

[Immigrant]

The issue is how long it takes to mature now. Kids used to leave home at 18 and never look back. Today, the percentage of kids who don't leave until their mid-20s is far higher, and they are less ready for the world around them than the 18 years used to be.

That hypothetical 29 year old is where a guy who is 21 was 30 years ago.

Again, it's not the fault of the kids, it's the fault of the parents. Entitlement is a learned behaviour. And it's one that snowballs from generation to generation.

I like your style, gramps. I have a few spare canes due to my gimpiness. I can share one if you need something to shake at today's youth.

 

[tfer]

LOL!

 

[One Drop]

Agree to disagree.

There's a reason that people don't want to go to Mexican, or Turkish jails. They have a reputation that horrifies sane people.

When that kid was caned in the Phillipines years ago, the uproar was incredible in North America but I'd guarantee you that he wouldn't have stolen if he realized the punishment was that harsh. Criminals beg their embassies to let them serve their sentences over here rather than in the countries where they broke the laws because they don't want the punishment that those "medieval" countries inflict.

Poor babies.

Yes, best to agree to disagree.

 

[One Drop]

There's a difference between breaking the law, and going to prison. I occasionally speed in my truck, because I weigh the price of the ticket against the convenience of arriving at my destination on time.

I don't hold up a liquor store, because there is NOTHING that is more important than staying out of prison. Nothing.

As for respect disappearing, it's been happening for about 15 years IMO, give or take. But it has fallen off a cliff for about the last 10 years.

If everyone thought like you then prison would indeed be a deterrent to everyone.

I personally don't hold up liquor stores, but I have my own very different reasons for not doing do.

And I consider speeding and potentially killing someone to be worthy of more serious penalties than smoking a joint, though there are plenty of people in jail in the US for doing the same thing.

Add to that the inordinately high sentences and levels of imprisonment for certain minorities for the same crimes and it makes the whole concept of prison as deterrent even less 'just'.

 

[One Drop]

Agree to disagree.

There's a reason that people don't want to go to Mexican, or Turkish jails. They have a reputation that horrifies sane people.

When that kid was caned in the Phillipines years ago, the uproar was incredible in North America but I'd guarantee you that he wouldn't have stolen if he realized the punishment was that harsh. Criminals beg their embassies to let them serve their sentences over here rather than in the countries where they broke the laws because they don't want the punishment that those "medieval" countries inflict.

Poor babies.

You might notice that their justice systems are entirely corrupt and who goes to jail or not depends more on your wealth and connections than the crimes you commit.

And the Phillipines and Mexico have some of the highest rates of murder and violent crime, making a nonsense of your examples.

 

[One Drop]

If you think I care whether anyone in Gitmo ever walks out again, you are sorely mistaken. If every prison in America was based on that model, incarceration rates would drop. Truly hardened criminals would still get arrested, but the casual guy who gets himself at the wrong place at the wrong time would avoid that place and time.

There were many innocent people in Guantanamo, and the next few weeks or months will be full of the soon to be released photos and videos of people being tortured, and even children being sodomised in front of their mothers. Brutality breeds brutality and everyone suffers, including the guards who have to administer this kind of justice.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[blue4]

(Sigh) Yes, because anyone who thinks or feels differently from you gets his marching orders from "yonder radio raht thar".

I just assumed it came from the radio. When someone makes a generalized statement based on no actual fact that's usually where it comes from. I did notice you backtracked in a later post and said you weren't to be taken literally though.

 

[El Güero]

And the Phillipines and Mexico have some of the highest rates of murder and violent crime, making a nonsense of your examples.

And you have accurate figures stating what these lower crime rates would be if they had much more inmate friendly conditions in jail?

Of course you don't, and that's why the whole Happy Holidays Hotel Prison argument holds no water.

There are no factual figures for comparison.

 

[One Drop]

The issue is how long it takes to mature now. Kids used to leave home at 18 and never look back. Today, the percentage of kids who don't leave until their mid-20s is far higher, and they are less ready for the world around them than the 18 years used to be.

That hypothetical 29 year old is where a guy who is 21 was 30 years ago.

Again, it's not the fault of the kids, it's the fault of the parents. Entitlement is a learned behaviour. And it's one that snowballs from generation to generation.

More probably the fault of low workforce entry wages and high student university loans.

But I'm describing the real world and not a cartoon version.

I know many young people and they are no less mature, adventurous, or independent then they were in my youth.

 

[One Drop]

And you have accurate figures stating what these lower crime rates would be if they had much more inmate friendly conditions in jail?

Of course you don't, and that's why the whole Happy Holidays Hotel Prison argument holds no water.

There are no factual figures for comparison.

Happy Holidays? Oh please.

And yes, believe it or not, many studies and much experimentation has been done over the last few generations testing and tracking rates of recidivism, etcetera. Do you really think governments make decisions like this for fun and without pilot programs to test results?

Your argument holds no water because it is obviously without basis in fact.

 

[blue4]

The issue is how long it takes to mature now. Kids used to leave home at 18 and never look back. Today, the percentage of kids who don't leave until their mid-20s is far higher, and they are less ready for the world around them than the 18 years used to be.

That hypothetical 29 year old is where a guy who is 21 was 30 years ago.

Again, it's not the fault of the kids, it's the fault of the parents. Entitlement is a learned behaviour. And it's one that snowballs from generation to generation.

They also died by 55-65 years of age like my father's parents. They didn't need years of schooling to make a low middle class living. Different world.

You may be right if you're hiring from college, I've no idea. But I can tell you from the blue collar world I live in there are plenty of 21 year-olds who've already served in the military or have been working long hours supporting themselves. They aren't much different than I was at 19 when I went in the navy, or much different then me when I started operating equipment at 23.

Also judging from what my kids have had to do and the career uncertainty that everyone faces now, I can say without a doubt I had it far easier than they do. And I know from my dad's career where his union contracts were lucrative and his pension assured, that he had it easier than I do. He made more than I do in the same job, when you adjust his free health care and cost of living/inflation.

Every generation has its problems.

 

[El Güero]

Your argument holds no water because it is obviously without basis in fact.

Yeah right...so present YOUR FACTS which prove me wrong.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

People are a product of the environment they were raised in, and that includes their families, schools, and the society in which they were raised.

 

[El Güero]

These "debates" are just stupid and a waste of time and energy, but since it's Christmas I'll share the two ways to end crime.

1. Make everything legal, nothing is illegal, therefore there are no crimes.

2. The extinction of the human race. No people = no crimes.

Anything short of 1 or 2 will continue to have crimes committed by humans. That's just the way it is.

 

[two fingers]

I just assumed it came from the radio. When someone makes a generalized statement based on no actual fact that's usually where it comes from. I did notice you backtracked in a later post and said you weren't to be taken literally though.

Taking that post literally was nothing short of silly. I never backtracked. I made up a ridiculously fictional story to make a point. No backtrack needed..... for people not being silly.

Edit: TB off topic used to be a place where we made light of serious subjects. Perhaps you haven't been around here long. Recently the fun police have moved in and everything one says is taken literally..... no matter how sarcastic or ridiculous.