Are we just getting too soft?

[aborgman]

Yeah, whenever people talk about historical events, or I learn about them, I look back in time to see what was their recent history, and also look at what's going on around the world. It helps contextualize things for me. Want another one? Oxford University is older than the Aztec Empire.

Sure... but the Aztec and Inca Empires weren't very old at all when the Spanish arrived. Younger than the USA is today.

The tribes comprising those empires on the other hand had been around much longer.

 

[pie_man_25]

Well actually don't disagree as much as you think. When I mentioned "breaking rocks" I didn't mean that literally. What I want is that we should work prisoners in some way. For one thing we could benefit from them. For another they will feel better about themselves simply by accomplishing somethimg other than working on their hook shot for one hour a day.

But simply giving them three squares a day behind a fence is neither a deterrent nor a benefit to society. A other thing that would help is teaching SKILLS that would apply in the LOCAL economy. Teaching a prisoner in Alabama something that would fill a job opening in Michigan would be silly. Then you offer local businesses HUGE tax incentives to hire these nest skilled workers when they get out.

But sitting around watching cable TV all day would not happen. You WILL produce something and you WILL learn something. Or your experience would become less and less fun. Not violent. But not fun.

We make our military men who screw up in basic training scrub bathroom floors and toilets with toothbrushes. And for prisoners who hurt someone (physically or otherwise) a bad meal is lack of human respect? It doesn't add up.

This idea is neither new nor revolutionary, nor is it not being currently implemented, ESPECIALLY in the U.S.

In fact, the problem with many prisons in the U.S. is that they are privately owned by corporations, who sign contracts with figures for mandatory rates of occupancy, and costs measured on a per diem basis. These corporations then subsidize their costs to other companies/corporations who use the labour pool of prisons as the basis for factories at a very minimal cost. Many DO actually work for companies, with Texas Instruments being one of the largest, IIRC.

A few years ago in Canada, the Harper administration has also done away with prison farms, which was a project that involved effectively subsidizing the prison food supply with cheap labour, and effectively being one of the more effective recidivism reducing programs in the nation, was done away with, touted as "ineffective". Such programs are great ideas for reducing crime and recidivism rates, what DOESN'T work is a "get tough" approach on crime.

 

[NoBlackTShirts]

I'm not even going to try to find a percentage of people who have to guard themselves from 'triggers' since there surely isn't an accurate figure anywhere...and if it were out there, I'm very certain it would be incredibly small.

If the number is so incredibly small, why are all the colleges capitulating and changing everything to cater to them?

 

[cfsporn]

If the number is so incredibly small, why are all the colleges capitulating and changing everything to cater to them?

Because the people who don't have to guard themselves from triggers aren't really harmed by safe spaces and trigger warnings.

 

[two fingers]

In a nutshell, some of that would be great but it just isn't the way things are run in CIs and the way things are headed its just getting worse.

Most people in jail aren't there for violent crimes. The programs you mention would cost money and no one wants to increase the cost of "rehabilitation". There's a word for you. I have a friend who spent over a year in prison for being high and was recently released. There were no training opportunities. She was allowed to work in the kitchen. Then they released her, homeless (as her mom died while she was inside), with $60 in her pocket.

Then you have the privately-owned prisons for profit. We all know the slippery slope that may lead to.

When you say "cable" TV, is that really a bad thing? And you should drop the "cable" part. It's used just like "flat screen" is used to describe TVs these days when attempting to make it sound like a luxury. I'm pretty sure reception is horrible in a prison without cable, and TV would occupy someone's time and maybe even keep them from going completely berserk from boredom and kicking their cellie's @$$.

Your post starts so kindly with ways to help the incarcerated, then makes mention of how we "could benefit from them" (slavery?), then questions why they aren't doing hard labor (the soldier cleaning the toilet with a toothbrush thing).

Oh and, good morning.

Perhaps my post was a bit " all over the place". I believe that prisoners should do some work. It doesn't have to be back breaking work. But they shouldn't just "exist" while they are there.

As for scrubbing toilets, it is used as a punishment in the military and should be implemented the same way in prison. If you "kick your cellie's butt" you should be down on your knees scrubbing the toilet while your cellie is taking a piss next door.

OK, you are very sensitive to the word "cable". My only point is they shouldn't be bored. They shouldn't just be lounging around.

If they wonder up working in a factory I think that would be great. They could MAKE something. That should give them at least a small sense of accomplishment as well as mingling with non prisoners, hopefully as a transition back into society.

I don't think prison should be cruel. But it shouldn't be easy either. There is no point whatsoever in having them just "exist". And it shouldn't be nicer than the life they had outside either.

Your friend going to prison for being high was dumb in the first place. She should have gone to captive rehab where people made her feel worth something and then proved it by showing her how to do something that would pay when she left. Then, give some local business a huge tax break for giving her a shot once she got out. It's her friends' job (like you and orhers) to see to it that she had a roof and food until she got back on her feet. And I put my money where my mouth is. Suffice to say that I own a small condo I don't live in for just such occasions. Not bragging. Just making sure you know I'm not wagging a finger when I don't practice what I preach.

Edit: My apologies. Good morning to you as well. Where are my manners this morning?

 

[blue4]

If they wonder up working in a factory I think that would be great. They could MAKE something. That should give them at least a small sense of accomplishment as well as mingling with non prisoners, hopefully as a transition back into society.

We don't have enough decent paying jobs as it is. I don't want prisoners doing any kind of work that a law abiding citizen could do to support his family.

Also not to get all 1984 paranoid, but having for-profit prisons that supply slave wage workers to for-profit factories seems like a really really bad idea.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

We don't have enough decent paying jobs as it is. I don't want prisoners doing any kind of work that a law abiding citizen could do to support his family.

Also not to get all 1984 paranoid, but having for-profit prisons that supply slave wage workers to for-profit factories seems like a really really bad idea.

IIRC, the US has the highest incarceration rate out of any country in the world. Doesn't take long to figure out why that might be.

 

[two fingers]

We don't have enough decent paying jobs as it is. I don't want prisoners doing any kind of work that a law abiding citizen could do to support his family.

Also not to get all 1984 paranoid, but having for-profit prisons that supply slave wage workers to for-profit factories seems like a really really bad idea.

And fish tank prisons where they just go from one side to the other looking around and producing nothing is a good idea?

 

[One Drop]

Well actually don't disagree as much as you think. When I mentioned "breaking rocks" I didn't mean that literally. What I want is that we should work prisoners in some way. For one thing we could benefit from them. For another they will feel better about themselves simply by accomplishing somethimg other than working on their hook shot for one hour a day.

But simply giving them three squares a day behind a fence is neither a deterrent nor a benefit to society. A other thing that would help is teaching SKILLS that would apply in the LOCAL economy. Teaching a prisoner in Alabama something that would fill a job opening in Michigan would be silly. Then you offer local businesses HUGE tax incentives to hire these nest skilled workers when they get out.

But sitting around watching cable TV all day would not happen. You WILL produce something and you WILL learn something. Or your experience would become less and less fun. Not violent. But not fun.

We make our military men who screw up in basic training scrub bathroom floors and toilets with toothbrushes. And for prisoners who hurt someone (physically or otherwise) a bad meal is lack of human respect? It doesn't add up.

Yes, vocational training, reading (a lot of prisoners have little choice in employment post release due to illiteracy, etc), all help with reinsertion in society afterwards.

But punishing prisoners with poor food is madness, you cannot function properly on a bad diet and an edible meal is the one thing most prisoners wait for all day. Depriving a human being if basic human dignity and treating them like dogs only continues a destructive cycle.

 

[blue4]

And fish tank prisons where they just go from one side to the other looking around and producing nothing is a good idea?

I never said that was, only that removing paying jobs and replacing them with basically free prison jobs is not a good idea either. 300,000,000+ people here in America. We have to work somewhere. What if we decided that white collar criminals could start work writing code or replacing other jobs that formerly paid money? It's a losing game IMO. Right now they're already picking up trash. So in my mind there shouldn't be a scrap of trash from coast to coast along the roadways before we even think of allowing any other jobs to go the way of, for all intents and purposes, slave labor.

 

[GregC]

You ought to know...dismissing topics with the wave of a hand based on the "fact' of.....well....you don't believe it so it isn't true.

Hmm, that reminds me of a post I quoted the other day.

Sorry ..don't believe any of what you say. I was there in those days and I know how it all went down.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

No, they have raised a generation of spoiled little kids that will grow up to be spoiled adults.

Well, many families are only allowed to have one child, if they have a boy the first time. So, I can imagine they'd want to spoil that one child.

 

[bolophonic]

In a nutshell, some of that would be great but it just isn't the way things are run in CIs and the way things are headed its just getting worse.

Most people in jail aren't there for violent crimes. The programs you mention would cost money and no one wants to increase the cost of "rehabilitation". There's a word for you. I have a friend who spent over a year in prison for being high and was recently released. There were no training opportunities. She was allowed to work in the kitchen. Then they released her, homeless (as her mom died while she was inside), with $60 in her pocket.

Then you have the privately-owned prisons for profit. We all know the slippery slope that may lead to.

When you say "cable" TV, is that really a bad thing? And you should drop the "cable" part. It's used just like "flat screen" is used to describe TVs these days when attempting to make it sound like a luxury. I'm pretty sure reception is horrible in a prison without cable, and TV would occupy someone's time and maybe even keep them from going completely berserk from boredom and kicking their cellie's @$$.

Your post starts so kindly with ways to help the incarcerated, then makes mention of how we "could benefit from them" (slavery?), then questions why they aren't doing hard labor (the soldier cleaning the toilet with a toothbrush thing).

Oh and, good morning.

A knee-jerk suggestion that slavery might be just the thing to straighten out misbehavior in the future? This is my shocked face, if you couldn't tell. I have a buddy who recently wrapped up a ~40 month sentence for a non-violent felony in a Federal penitentiary. One of those places that the big talkers like to refer to as a Club Med vacation while they start fantasizing out loud about ways to make life more horrific for inmates. He had a loving family to return to, which is one of the biggest factors involved in keeping ex-convicts from recidivism. I'll be sure to ask him sometime what he thinks about some random dude on the internet slobbering about how much worse they could make the food, or how he might feel about paying his debt to society by becoming enslaved. The big talker/deep thinker contingent is entirely beholden to the worship of power and punishment to the exclusion of all other concepts. I am a pragmatist, so my question would be "what can we do to reduce crime?" Unfortunately, that question is frequently (deliberately) misinterpreted to mean, "all criminals deserve a lollipop and balloon ride," or "kumbaya."

Tattoos make me worry about the same thing.

You would jump off the nearest cliff if you saw me.

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

The basic facts are that if you want the result of less crime, treating people with respect and dignity is the best way to do it, in any situation. Doesn't fulfill the primal urge for revenge for some people, but if you value that over actually getting results and improving society you're a bad person.

Check out Sweden and their "soft" prisons and results.
‘Prison is not for punishment in Sweden. We get people into better shape’ | Erwin James

 

[Icemanaroonie]

So I guess the question is do we want a justice system or a system to rehabilitate criminals?

 

[El Güero]

TNC Reprise

DON'T DO THE CRIME

IF YOU CAN'T EAT THE SLIME

Happy Holidays

 

[Hoff Kinkmeister]

So I guess the question is do we want a justice system or a system to rehabilitate criminals?

Why not a justice system that rehabilitates criminals? If you want less crime, that's how it's done.

 

[Metalbasspro]

Omg. Im so laughing. Oorah.

Can you tolerate leftover or too good for them? I know many people who won't eat them.

 

[Darth Handsome]

Can you tolerate leftover or too good for them? I know many people who won't eat them.

Of course I love leftovers. Im a grown man.

 

[mellowinman]

Yes. We have gotten too soft in pretty much every way imaginable. View attachment 757533

Tell the family of PFC Wilson how soft he was.