Double Bass As a jazz player, what do you practise with the bow?

[jjqq123]

Lately i´ve been finding myself on a rut with the bow.

My goal is to practise for intonation and jazz bowing.
Long tones, two octave scales and simandl etudes is what I´ve been doing so far.

I don´t seem to improve much on the jazz bowing thing, but my intonation gets better. But i find bowing tedious.

As the tittle says, what´s your routine/routines with the bow aiming to improve in a jazz context?

Thank you all!

 

[Silevesq]

May I ask you what is your goal? What do you mean by jazz bowing and what would you consider "improving".

There is so many aspect to the bow that it is hard to pin point what you want/need.

I like to work on melody and really be aware of what is going on with both my right and left hand. Let's say I'm playing "How High the Moon". First: which register will I play it in? Open D or harmonics D? Then make sure your fingering are clear and not "half done". Then decided up/down, to slur or not to slur and so on. Threat it like a classical etude.

Yes, this may sound boring. But the goal to jazz is to learn the vocabulary that can then be pick on by other musician. Your are relearning everything you know but with the bow. Therefor you need to learn the bowing langage.

The fact that your intonation is getting better is a good sign, but what if I told you to look at a Simandl etude and threat it as if you had to apply it to a Jazz context? What would you change?

 

[BrotherMister]

I'm about to become deeply unpopular very quickly but I've become less and less a fan of arco solos in jazz as I get older. That's just a personal preference for me.

Having said that practising with the bow is pretty much a non negotiable for me now. I never got much out of it until I went and studied classical bass playing with a proper orchestral musician. That changed everything for me in terms of securing intonation, relaxed hand, tone and all of the good stuff of the bass. It was mega frustrating and points I nearly quit altogether since she basically rebuilt my playing from the very beginning after a decade of studying with jazz musicians but it has been the best thing I've ever done for my playing. Stick with the bow for shedding all the technical stuff and you'll hear/feel the benefits of doing that. That's how I use it, and it's part of my routine every time i pick up the instrument. If only have a half an hour to practise then it's all done with the bow. The benefits just outweigh everything else.

 

[jjqq123]

May I ask you what is your goal? What do you mean by jazz bowing and what would you consider "improving".

There is so many aspect to the bow that it is hard to pin point what you want/need.

I like to work on melody and really be aware of what is going on with both my right and left hand. Let's say I'm playing "How High the Moon". First: which register will I play it in? Open D or harmonics D? Then make sure your fingering are clear and not "half done". Then decided up/down, to slur or not to slur and so on. Threat it like a classical etude.

Yes, this may sound boring. But the goal to jazz is to learn the vocabulary that can then be pick on by other musician. Your are relearning everything you know but with the bow. Therefor you need to learn the bowing langage.

The fact that your intonation is getting better is a good sign, but what if I told you to look at a Simandl etude and threat it as if you had to apply it to a Jazz context? What would you change?

Thanks for your reply! I can work on melodies that´s true. That sounds fun. BTW i don´t know how to apply "the Simandl to a jazz context", it sounds pretty classical to me.

About my aim, I guess i want to be able to take bowed solos and i want to enjoy the sound that i produce with the bow...

I'm about to become deeply unpopular very quickly but I've become less and less a fan of arco solos in jazz as I get older. That's just a personal preference for me.

Having said that practising with the bow is pretty much a non negotiable for me now. I never got much out of it until I went and studied classical bass playing with a proper orchestral musician. That changed everything for me in terms of securing intonation, relaxed hand, tone and all of the good stuff of the bass. It was mega frustrating and points I nearly quit altogether since she basically rebuilt my playing from the very beginning after a decade of studying with jazz musicians but it has been the best thing I've ever done for my playing. Stick with the bow for shedding all the technical stuff and you'll hear/feel the benefits of doing that. That's how I use it, and it's part of my routine every time i pick up the instrument. If only have a half an hour to practise then it's all done with the bow. The benefits just outweigh everything else.

Thanks for your response! may i ask what is the "technical stuff" you are shedding with the bow?

 

[Pat Harris]

+1 to @Silevesq's post.

I'd add that when I want to play a head (never mind improvising) with a bow, I notate and articulate the entire thing and work it up as if it were a piece of classical rep. Everything is so much more exposed when playing arco (IME) that I can't afford to fudge anything. If you're taking a head/melody on a song, you also need to be specific/intentional on what you want a comping instrument to do behind you. All of this is before you actually start "making stuff up."

 

[jjqq123]

+1 to @Silevesq's post.

I'd add that when I want to play a head (never mind improvising) with a bow, I notate and articulate the entire thing and work it up as if it were a piece of classical rep. Everything is so much more exposed when playing arco (IME) that I can't afford to fudge anything. If you're taking a head/melody on a song, you also need to be specific/intentional on what you want a comping instrument to do behind you. All of this is before you actually start "making stuff up."

Allright it seems that to work on heads with the bow is a common thing, thanks!

 

[Michael Drost]

Scales
Sturm Etudes
A Vivaldi Sonata, Marcello Sonata, Eccles etc.
Omnibook work
Tune work...heads, arpeggios, walk bass lines with bow, improvise.

This is my maintenance schedule.

 

[AGCurry]

@jjqq123 , what you're doing is exactly what I'm doing, as well as playing any melody that comes into my head. All of it helps me in every other aspect of my playing.

 

[Sean Riddle]

Don’t discount practicing classical etudes and other materials for improving arco technique for jazz playing. Long tones in particular will help, but it will take some time. I had a great lesson with Ken Filiano a year and a half ago where I wanted to focus on improving arco technique and articulation. He proceeded to have me work on long tones, going as slow as I can, for a good hour. Needless to say practicing a lot of that material to this day has insanely improved my arco technique and has allowed me better control to improvise with the bow. So materials wise Simandl is essential, add in Zimmerman’s bowing book, the Storch-Hrabe etudes, and in my opinion Joel Quarrington’s Daily Exercises is a great newer method to add on.

So my thing with improvising with the bow is you have to combine two languages, the physical and melodic language of classical arco technique and then jazz rhythmic and melodic vocabulary. To help with jazz vocabulary, bow some heads and maybe even bass lines, whether they be Great American Songbook tunes or Bop heads. If you’re into transcribing definitely do a bit of Slam Stewart. His music is crystal clear and just so good. He’s the foundation for arco solos and his stuff just swings so hard.

But most importantly bust out your bow for a solo or two on a gig and take the risk. Whenever I’m on a jazz gig and decide to bow a solo, I usually do it on a tune I know well and blues/rhythm changes. I do though take some chances occasionally and try bowing a solo on a tune I don’t know too well.

For me personally I do most of my practice with the bow nowadays. I usually start with long tones, followed by some scales, then maybe a little sight reading from Storch-Hrabe or Simandl, and then either work on music for upcoming gigs or practice some standards.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Like Sean says - LONG TONES. SLOWLY. I generally start at at qnote=40bpm and try to get 8 beats per bow direction. There are a number of things to concentrate on:
attack - the moment the bow starts the direction of vibration. You want to get much the same feeling of pizz, an immediacy of the voice (rather than the gradual increase in sound and vibration as the bow moves across the string).
even tone -smooth consistent sound as the bow moves across the string
even volume - likewise, no increase or decrease in volume as the bow moves
change in bow direction - keeping the sound consistent when the bow changes direction
There's another exercise that has you playing 8th notes (at the above metronome marking) first at the frog and then at the tip, articulating each note with a direction change of the bow, keeping the hair on the string at all times. Then arpeggios and scalar exercises with differing bow articulations (how many in notes per bow direction, legato, staccato, etc.)
Generally all of the above is performed with scales and I have found that this just doesn't work on intonation, you are also working on left hand physical approach. If you're trying to play a Gb/F# major scale with 2 bars per note at 40bpm, you find out very quickly if you are using the shoulder/upper arm/gravity to stop the note or if you are just squeezing it down with your fingers. It really gets your left hand into shape.The other thing that I found happening is that richness of sound, timbre, tone that you are trying to achieve playing arco starts changing your expectation of sound for your pizz playing as well.

Other things I practice are orchestral excerpts, some Bach pieces my buddy Dan transcribed for bass and tenor, bottom line of Bach 2 parts, I've got a couple of compilations of duets for cello and flute that most of the cello parts are actually in bass clef, stuff like that. I've recently started reading through the Charles Colin Studies In Rhythm again, but playing everything arco.

But here's the thing; the bow is just a TOOL. If you can control the tool, then it doesn't really matter what you use it for. If what you are hearing is a melodic line loosely hung on a 32 bar harmonic progression that accompanies a composed melody and that line is rhythmically based on that 3 against 2 feel from the African diaspora, then you should be able to use the bow to get that out. As long as you can use your fingers to do the same thing, right?

 

[Keith Rawlings]

If you’re into transcribing definitely do a bit of Slam Stewart. His music is crystal clear and just so good. He’s the foundation for arco solos and his stuff just swings so hard.

Sean - I’m working on rudimentary arco technique with the Simandl book after 25 years of untrained slapping and pizzicato play and it’s definitely a challenge. I’ve been seeking some great examples of jazz arco technique in my music collection (as I have many examples of excellent classical technique) and I was wondering if you could recommend a great Slam Stewart album to listen to for great bow usage in a swing feel?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

 

[callmejs]

wow

 

[Ed Fuqua]

wow

Yeah, we're taking up a collection to set him up on a date with Tonya Harding....

 

[Ed Fuqua]

and I have found that this just doesn't work on intonation,...

WHAT I MEANT TO SAY was "...doesn't just work..." rather than "... just doesn't work...". Sometimes the brain, she gets ahead of the hands....

 

[Wasnex]

Lately i´ve been finding myself on a rut with the bow.

My goal is to practise for intonation and jazz bowing.
Long tones, two octave scales and simandl etudes is what I´ve been doing so far.

I don´t seem to improve much on the jazz bowing thing, but my intonation gets better. But i find bowing tedious.

As the tittle says, what´s your routine/routines with the bow aiming to improve in a jazz context?

Thank you all!

I think arco is practically worthless for jazz performance, but I think it's great for developing intonation and technique. I would suggest practicing music that is interesting with the bow. Melodic etudes, bass and cello solos, challenging orchestral excerpts, etc. Of course, in order to play some of these well you will need to dedicate some time studying bow technique specifically. IMHO, that's pretty much the cost for making it interesting long term. I.E. Without proper facility with the bow, your left playing easy stuff that is boring.

 

[Tom Lane]

I think arco is practically worthless for jazz performance, but I think it's great for developing intonation and technique. I would suggest practicing music that is interesting with the bow. Melodic etudes, bass and cello solos, challenging orchestral excerpts, etc. Of course, in order to play some of these well you will need to dedicate some time studying bow technique specifically. IMHO, that's pretty much the cost for making it interesting long term. I.E. Without proper facility with the bow, your left playing easy stuff that is boring.

I was going to sit on my hands for this one, mostly because anything I could add has already been well-said, but... your post begs me to provide a different view, that I haven't read yet. Forgive me if I missed it. And, I'm not contradicting you, I agree that arco isn't necessarily that useful for jazzers, but...
Aside from the usual technical skills, long bows, string crossings, 16th notes, etc, I've played everything I play using the bow.
The two most valuable things are probably melodies and then soloing, but I've also played my bass lines using the bow, in practice, I haven't yet bowed a bass line on a gig intending it as a bass line; never say never.
Both melodies and soloing are great for improving your dexterity, but I find soloing another dimension more complicated. I think that's for two reasons: 1) there are a lot more options and techniques that can be applied with the bow, so, while being more expressive than pizz, there's a lot more decisions that need to be made in real time, with the technique to render it well and 2) it's easier to "back yourself into a corner" while soloing and lose your melodic idea or just plain fail to "play what you intended" and distract yourself from your musical thought. Add to that, that soloing arco has a slightly different language than soloing pizz.
Okay, so, there's lots of challenges to arco jazz. The big reason to work on it is that arco gives you an entirely different voice than pizz, and a more articulate, expressive, nuanced voice closer to a human voice. I think it's killer to be able to have both in your arsenal.

 

[juusokasperi]

I've been playing scales with a metronome set on 60 bpm, 8 beats per note on the whole range of my bass for the last few months and it's been really helpful. In addition to that Simandl etudes, arcoing some solos e.g. Coltrane's Resolution, Sonny Stitt on There Is No Greater Love, Pettiford on Tricotism, playing some heads etc. Also just improvising on tunes with the bow in the shed or when playing sessions.

I think I read an interview of Ari Roland where he says something along the lines that 'you can be the greatest jazz bassist and never play the bow' - I think there's some truth to that but if what you want to do is to arco solos in the parker language then I think that's what you should try to go for.

 

[Tom Lane]

This vid seems on point. Lynn starts bowing at about 2:05 minutes into it, but the whole video is wonderful.

 

[Wasnex]

I was going to sit on my hands for this one, mostly because anything I could add has already been well-said, but... your post begs me to provide a different view, that I haven't read yet. Forgive me if I missed it. And, I'm not contradicting you, I agree that arco isn't necessarily that useful for jazzers, but...
Aside from the usual technical skills, long bows, string crossings, 16th notes, etc, I've played everything I play using the bow.
The two most valuable things are probably melodies and then soloing, but I've also played my bass lines using the bow, in practice, I haven't yet bowed a bass line on a gig intending it as a bass line; never say never.
Both melodies and soloing are great for improving your dexterity, but I find soloing another dimension more complicated. I think that's for two reasons: 1) there are a lot more options and techniques that can be applied with the bow, so, while being more expressive than pizz, there's a lot more decisions that need to be made in real time, with the technique to render it well and 2) it's easier to "back yourself into a corner" while soloing and lose your melodic idea or just plain fail to "play what you intended" and distract yourself from your musical thought. Add to that, that soloing arco has a slightly different language than soloing pizz.
Okay, so, there's lots of challenges to arco jazz. The big reason to work on it is that arco gives you an entirely different voice than pizz, and a more articulate, expressive, nuanced voice closer to a human voice. I think it's killer to be able to have both in your arsenal.

My previous statement was IMHO and YMMV. There is something about the tone and way that an arco string bass speaks that just doesn't seem to swing, but again this is IMHO and YMMV.

Just because I wouldn't do it, is no reason why you shouldn't. So if you like the may it sounds, go for it! .