As-is / no returns

[MultiScaleMale]

works perfectly well in Real Estate sales ..!!??! Used Cars ... etc ..

Things you usually inspect before purchasing. But with an online instrument transaction, it really reads like "I"m hiding something".

 

[TheReceder]

Agreed with Gorn. It's become increasingly expected in the age of online retail that everyone selling something online should behave like Amazon or Wal-Mart. If you as the buyer don't like what you get, for any reason, the seller should make it right, up to and including taking the product back and paying a refund.

Well, that expectation is valid when you're dealing with Amazon or Wal-Mart, with tens of millions a day in sales, returns are part of the cost of doing business, and most of the people you actually see working for the store are paid by the hour and have little or no personal investment in the store or its products. In fact, in many cases Amazon doesn't even want "returned" items back, they'll just refund you the money, because the item's value or markup is less than the cost of an RMA to retrieve it.

That expectation is highly invalid when you are dealing with someone selling a few things he or she has personally owned and used, and still values, but is willing to part with for the right price. This is no Wal-Mart customer service associate; what you're buying was purchased with hours out of his or her life. That's literal skin in the game, a personal investment in the item being sold. So imagine the hilarity that ensues when someone conditioned by the big-box retail experience, or in the extreme has learned how to exploit that environment to their advantage (the stereotypical "Karen"), brings those expectations to this more personal selling environment.

Unfortunately, online marketplace sites often adopt the policies of their real-world retail cousins, at least by default; disputes over sold items disproportionately favor the buyer. So, when direct "negotiations" over the condition of a received item start with the Karen asserting their typical social superiority over a retailer, and end predictably with the seller telling the Karen to pound sand, they got what they paid for, the Karen takes her argument to the "manager" - the actual site's customer service department - and to the seller's horror, the site's payment processor reverses the transaction pretty much as a matter of course, because the seller had the site's default return/refund policies in place on the listing.

If you've ever experienced that, if you even continue to use that online market at all, you use every tool you're given to protect yourself, up to and including listing everything "as-is". As-Is status, on most sites, typically overrides buyer protections that the seller is otherwise required to agree to as a condition of listing the item, and has become very popular as a direct response to the abuse of these buyer protections by unscrupulous or just overly-entitled buyers. As-is means no returns, refunds, exchanges, warranties or credits will be extended by the seller nor enforced by the site.

There is one very important exception to the buyer protection overrides, namely that the item must still be "as described". An error or omission that creates a clear disconnect between the item's stated condition and its actual condition is still the seller's responsibility. The marketplace company can do no other, because to refuse to assist the buyer in these situations is to condone fraud, and civil practice lawyers love it when they get a clear shot at deep pockets in fraud cases.

So, "as-is" does not mean "this is junk, walk away". It means "I am telling you up front that if you buy this item, once the money changes hands and the item is delivered, our business is concluded". The site carrying the listing will still hold the seller to an accurate description and depiction of the item being sold.

Liko… it's rare that I read really long posts... I'm easily distracted.... oh look a squirrel....but yours was well written... nice job.

 

[gln1955]

To me, an as is sale is appropriate for something that has issues. For example, if I had an amp that stopped working and did not want to invest in getting it fixed or even checked out, I would list it "as is" and describe it as best as possible. Someone else can take the chance that it's fixable or just buy it for parts.

 

[DigitalMan]

"As is" doesn't apply to misrepresentations.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

It also protects against buyer's remorse, whether it be financial or otherwise. I've done a few Ebay transactions where the buyer claimed something was wrong, and of course, they get to send the item back (and I eat the shipping cost). I test the item and it works fine. I even had my tech look at the item in question on one occasion, and he verified nothing was wrong.

My days of flipping gear are pretty much over, but if I can't sell it in person locally or on TB, I'm keeping it.

_
It’s time to acknowledge commerce via the Internet has significant risk. It seems like every week we get a tale of woe on this board over an internet deal gone south. Two things for sure, I would not sell anything over the internet, and secondly, I will never buy or pay for an instrument unless it’s in my hands.

 

[james condino]

I got permanently banned from the new corporate version of Reverb a few weeks for complaining about their new policies since the buyout that were never part of my original agreement with the former owners.....

 

[Gibson Victory]

It could just be sellers that have been burnt by buyers that damage the item to return it. I had that happen with a pedal. Pretty sure they ran it 18V and damaged it, but I can't prove it, so I lost a pedal and paid to ship it both ways. Also, PayPal will almost always side with the buyer even if you put "As-is / no returns" in the listing. My opinion, if you want to do an as-is / no return sale, do it in person. Maybe online isn't for you.

What gets me the most after all these years is the one “there is no return or refund unless the item arrives significantly less than described”. Exactly what is this? The legal types should be able to “slice and dice” this one six ways to Sunday. Have always said that most all companies will, for safety’s sake, side with the buyer, not the seller. It’s the Money coming in that matters, not the money going out. Same thing happened to me on a Boss Pedal back in the day. After the dust settled on the issue, I sent the thing back to Boss for an evaluation. they were like ?????? What is supposed to be wrong here? In other words, nothing. Don’t even get me started on packaging. Spent the better part of today cleaning styrofoam particles out of a B4R I bought recently on “the Verb”. Sorry, rant over.

 

[JimmyM]

I've done it. I make no apologies. If there's a problem that was clearly a result of poor packaging or poor handling by the carrier, that's one thing, but I'm not eating a refund because someone doesn't like it, or finds one small ding that I missed getting a picture of vs the 10 dings I got, or a tube gets damaged in transit. I test everything before I put it up and I pack it well, and I'm reasonable in situations where I think I should be, which are fortunately few and far between.

 

[Mechayoshi]

"As is" doesn't apply to misrepresentations.

Bingo, so it really isn’t anything to be too worried about if the seller is reputable. They don’t want buyers remorse scams is all, which is a huge deal when the buyers have so much protection. When I buy something I want it in the first place. The smallest detail missed that isn’t important (and you didn’t ask more details about either) is not a cause to return a USED item.

 

[bobdabilder]

Tb doesn't filter out people from selling gear. You pays your money you sells your stuff.

I don't believe a bassist would rip off another bassist, bassists aren't like that.
So I don't think I would be intimidated to buy from the TB marketplace.

But a seller on Ebay or Reverb (ReBay) or similar, I wouldn't buy anything marked "as-is, no returns". Too risky for a chance to save a couple bucks.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Bingo, so it really isn’t anything to be too worried about if the seller is reputable. They don’t want buyers remorse scams is all, which is a huge deal when the buyers have so much protection. When I buy something I want it in the first place. The smallest detail missed that isn’t important (and you didn’t ask more details about either) is not a cause to return a USED item.

How do you know if the seller is reputable? If the seller is reputable, it should be listed as "broken truss rod" or whatever. There is no reason for a reputable seller to list anything with "as-is". It's just an attempt to push the responsibility onto the buyer to find out any issues before they buy. If they don't ask the right question, "Hey, I said as-is in the ad, sorry."

 

[bobdabilder]

You don't. Great point.

How do you know if the seller is reputable? If the seller is reputable, it should be listed as "broken truss rod" or whatever. There is no reason for a reputable seller to list anything with "as-is". It's just an attempt to push the responsibility onto the buyer to find out any issues before they buy. If they don't ask the right question, "Hey, I said as-is in the ad, sorry."

 

[FrenchBassQC]

It could just be sellers that have been burnt by buyers that damage the item to return it.

Yes, it does happen, I have experienced it as well...

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Yes, it does happen, I have experienced it as well...

On TB, the biggest thing to watch out for is a bad trade. You have no protection in that situation other than someone gets their account banned. The best thing about TB is that you can select your buyer. If someone wants to buy something but tingles you’re Spidey senses, you don’t have to sell to them. On eBay or Reverb, you can’t do that.

 

[Pilgrim]

I got burned a while back. I bought a bass. I kept getting fret buzz. I couldn't set it up. After some time I took it to a pro. Turns out the neck was twisted. (I wound up having a new neck made for the bass ...proprietary neck pocket.)

So, you're saying that if you sell a bass to someone, and it winds up having a defect, you MIGHT "handle it" but you reserve the right not to?

Yup. If it had a defect I would have disclosed that.

 

[SlapHappyPappy]

Sold and bought a ton over the years on both formats....Been burned a couple of times but most ofter the deals fly without a hitch.
Had one guy sell me a PRS as "PRISTINE", When it arrived it looked like it had been tied to a bumper and drug around the parking lot, Bad! When I confronted him based on his "returns accepted" policy he suddenly stated that he had already spent the money???.
When I brought e-bay into it he told them I must have done all that damage!!
What an idiot man!! I eventually sorted it out and must point out that this is rare, again most always things go very smoothly

 

[DrMole]

I have a TS9 Tube Screamer that has a noisy pot but works fine with a few twists. If I were selling it, this would be disclosed- would even be willing to send a vid of me twisting the knobs and the associated scratching. I would sell that "as is". If someone is willing to pay me $50, shipped under those conditions with my full disclosure, sale is final.

If it $hits the bed two weeks from now... Sorry?

I would NOT hide anything if I were selling something. I know some would and that is a risk we ALL take as buyers.

Internet sales are different than used car sales but every Bill-of-sale for my autos clearly stated : As-is, where-is. If it doesn't start tomorrow, I willl probably try to help you jump it but if it needs to be towed, that is on you.

 

[jpmcbride]

The wording below is what is used currently on Reverb. The problem I have with most (almost all) Reverb ads with this selected, is that their description is minimal, leaving the buyer exposed to any number of issues. If you list something on Reverb with this option selected, please at least state that everything is working, the truss rod works, etc.

This item is sold As-Described
This item is sold As-Described and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed. Items must be returned in original, as-shipped condition with all original packaging.

 

[4stringfarley]

The "bass community" thing on TB has really changed.

Welcome to capitalism.

Yeah I dont think you know what that word means.

 

[Ghook]

In todays buying environment everyone wants a brand spanking new used intsurments for pennies on the dollar. Give me a break!. The slightest nick or scratch or set up they don't like has them rushing to the "resolution" center.

I will take extra photos.... what I will not do is take it back, ever. I do make that very clear in my listing. If someone needs a no risk purchase, get an Amazon prime account and look at their warehouse deals and blems . You may have to go through a return process, but that's all.

When there are too many presell questions that go beyond normal ( asking why Im selling is ok. What is the exact string spacing, weight, string height...neurotic) I will simply say the unit has sold and pull the ad for a few days. My own approach is to undersell the item as far as condition..used, normal wear and value price it. I'm ok with depreciation, I used it right?

My experience with As Is/ NoRefunds is the buyer I get has accepted risk. A vast majority of sellers are honest. Experienced buyers understand that and play the odds.

Personally I have a lot of pre-owned items that has saved me a ton of dollars. Much of it "as is".

Some folk just are not cut out for internet purchasing and should simply stay away from it. They will feel better as will the sellers they don't get to deal with.