As-is / no returns

[Scott Loveless]

As a buyer, any time I see "as is, no returns" on an item I'm unable to review in person, I just assume it's completely worn out and doesn't work at all. If I still want it, I make an appropriate offer.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I see plenty of $300 basses for sale. Are you wrong or are they?

Neither. I'm not talking about $300 basses, but you want to limit the discussion to those. So, to be clear, I'm not talking about cheap basses where there is minimal risk. Cool?

 

[lfmn16]

I agree with you. Like I said, not a fan of shoot first. Reasonable people can sort this out without escalation.

Yup. I value my feedback more than a few dollars. When I was still selling books on Amazon someone contacted me about some minor damage to the book so I refunded all their money. I took three days to ship a pedal on Reverb so I put a ten dollar bill in with the pedal and a note of apology. It's worth a couple of dollars to be able to say that I have perfect feedback on TB, Reverb, eBay, TDPRI, Gretsch-Talk.

 

[FenderP]

Neither. I'm not talking about $300 basses, but you want to limit the discussion to those. So, to be clear, I'm not talking about cheap basses where there is minimal risk. Cool?

Ah, there's the rub where we'll agree to disagree. Maybe to you or me $300 isn't a ton of money. To someone else, that may be a metric crapton of money. The rules don't change whether someone spends $300, $3000, or $30000 for sellers or buyers. You can't be arbitrary here. Someone can be swindled as a seller or buyer at a low price point or a high one.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Ah, there's the rub where we'll agree to disagree. Maybe to you or me $300 isn't a ton of money. To someone else, that may be a metric crapton of money. The rules don't change whether someone spends $300, $3000, or $30000 for sellers or buyers. You can't be arbitrary here.

But you are. I didn't mention anything about $300 basses, you did so don't play the martyr. The economics of shipping a $300 bass across country for an individual just doesn't make sense to a seller if you're including shipping in the listed price, which is expected on TB. I looked through the first ten pages of the classifieds and there aren't many $300 basses. If the buyer has to pay shipping, it really isn't a $300 bass. Most of the action in the classifieds is $1500 and up. That's where shipping costs can start to be considered negligible as a portion of the sale price. And yes, I'd rather buy a $300 bass that is a dud than a $3000 bass that is a dud. $300 is a much lower risk than a $3000 bass.

 

[LowActionHero]

I've noticed a few sales recently listed as "as-is / no returns". Don't think I've seen that here (TB Classified) previously. Doesn't the "as-is / no returns" disclaimer negate any and all of the descriptions? Personally, I'd just pass on the sale but I hope it's not a new way of turning TB Classifieds into something sketchy like Craigslist. Personally, I'd like to see as-is sales banned. If you can't fully disclose the condition, then don't hide behind "as-is".

Unfortunately, if I see as is/no returns I assume it needs some work and adjust what I'd pay accordingly.

 

[FenderP]

But you are. I didn't mention anything about $300 basses, you did so don't play the martyr. The economics of shipping a $300 bass across country for an individual just doesn't make sense to a seller if you're including shipping in the listed price, which is expected on TB. I looked through the first ten pages of the classifieds and there aren't many $300 basses. If the buyer has to pay shipping, it really isn't a $300 bass. Most of the action in the classifieds is $1500 and up. That's where shipping costs can start to be considered negligible as a portion of the sale price. And yes, I'd rather buy a $300 bass that is a dud than a $3000 bass that is a dud. $300 is a much lower risk than a $3000 bass.

Shipping sucks for everything today - not just basses.There were many things that used to be reasonable to ship that now are not. Most normal things now cost $15 - $30 to ship unless it's super small or light. Basses are $80+ in most cases. Luckily I haven't needed to sell one recently, but the last one I sold cost me about $100 to ship.

This is why sellers and buyers need to do their homework and understand that free shipping on $300 is untenable for the seller, etc. Depending on the listing, I may or may not include shipping. Everything is "it depends", but I'm clear as to if it is or is not. If shipping is charged on something like a bass, what I do is actually measure, weigh, and get the real cost so someone can make an informed decision if shipping isn't included if it's worth it to them.

Where all of this has a bigger impact is on eBay who gets you on the total fee and they'll get a cut of shipping, too.

Amazon, et al., offering "free" shipping has killed a lot of selling. There are things I won't bother with trying to get rid of. I'd rather take a tax write off and donate.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

Do you think if we had a Canada classified section, we might avoid these nasty return experiences?

Ha ha, unfortunately not. There are jerks in Canada too.

 

[glocke1]

OP does not think this. OP actually has transaction history on TB.

sorry..i meant me

 

[BobKos]

part of why TB is a safe place to buy is that the person selling is a member, and therefore knows more than your average goon off of craigslist.

i've never had an issue here and agree that "as is" is sketchy and would put me off.

I guess it would be fair for them to be banned here. as a frequent seller i'm comfortable with that.

Banning members for stating as-is in their ads? That's ridiculous. If you want to let the entire country try your gear at your expense that's your game and you will always have an audience for your gear that way. But don't hate on those of us who don't have the time or patience to deal with tire kickers and people who want to gig on borrowed gear. I think THOSE people should be banned. See the above post of the guy who is sorry he can't return a sixer fretless after a MONTH because he didn't bond with it. ***?

 

[Gibson Victory]

The wording below is what is used currently on Reverb. The problem I have with most (almost all) Reverb ads with this selected, is that their description is minimal, leaving the buyer exposed to any number of issues. If you list something on Reverb with this option selected, please at least state that everything is working, the truss rod works, etc.

This item is sold As-Described
This item is sold As-Described and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed. Items must be returned in original, as-shipped condition with all original packaging.

I am just about done with Reverb for the above reason, and that folks that can’t seem to package items correctly. Seems that a deal there is not always a deal, taking everything into consideration. Frankly tired of getting gear that needs basic cleaning, styrofoam particles inside of amp heads, overpriced shipping etc. A lot of this stuff should just be common sense to most people, but in this case apparently not.

 

[groooooove]

Banning members for stating as-is in their ads? That's ridiculous. If you want to let the entire country try your gear at your expense that's your game and you will always have an audience for your gear that way. But don't hate on those of us who don't have the time or patience to deal with tire kickers and people who want to gig on borrowed gear. I think THOSE people should be banned. See the above post of the guy who is sorry he can't return a sixer fretless after a MONTH because he didn't bond with it. ***?

im sorry, i think you completely misunderstood me. I was not commenting on sellers getting banned.

an ad stating a sale is 'as is' without honest disclosure of the instruments shortcomings, condition, functionality, etc. is a problem. I'd be in favor of that not happening, and perhaps I was a little fast and loose with my words.

I guess all I really meant is that 'as is' should come with the requirement that the instrument is fully and accurately described. I don't know of any particularly fair way of enforcing such a requirement.

I've never had this issue on TB, and generally trust the TB community to fairly describe/document instruments in ads.

 

[DrMole]

im sorry, i think you completely misunderstood me. I was not commenting on sellers getting banned.

an ad stating a sale is 'as is' without honest disclosure of the instruments shortcomings, condition, functionality, etc. is a problem. I'd be in favor of that not happening, and perhaps I was a little fast and loose with my words.

I guess all I really meant is that 'as is' should come with the requirement that the instrument is fully and accurately described. I don't know of any particularly fair way of enforcing such a requirement.

I've never had this issue on TB, and generally trust the TB community to fairly describe/document instruments in ads.

Thanks for clarification.

 

[glocke1]

im sorry, i think you completely misunderstood me. I was not commenting on sellers getting banned.

an ad stating a sale is 'as is' without honest disclosure of the instruments shortcomings, condition, functionality, etc. is a problem. I'd be in favor of that not happening, and perhaps I was a little fast and loose with my words.

I guess all I really meant is that 'as is' should come with the requirement that the instrument is fully and accurately described. I don't know of any particularly fair way of enforcing such a requirement.

I've never had this issue on TB, and generally trust the TB community to fairly describe/document instruments in ads.

The problem with all of this is that just as there are unscrupulous sellers, there are unscrupulous buyers as well.

Earlier I posted two examples of items i sold where i was honest in disclosing the condition of the item, but the buyers were less than honest after receiving the item.

I can list every single flaw with an item I'm selling, but all it takes is one buyer with O.C.D. worse than mine who detects a swirl in the finish or a fine scratch only visible when held under a certain angle in the right lighting that I didn't catch and they will say "I want a refund or $$$ back!".

This reminds me of another guitar i sold some years ago. A taylor acoustic that had gotten moderate playing by myself and myself only. I probably owned that guitar for 3 years and didn't really pick it up that often. Sold it online, buyer asked me about fretwear, I commented that I didn't notice any significant fretwear. Thats the truth also..I looked, and to me what I saw was not significant and to be expected on a used guitar.

Buyer got it, was somewhat irate about the amount of fretwear (which honestly was very little) but didn't pursue the matter fortunately.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

TL;DR: No returns as a rule, and I'm fine with someone not buying because of that.

I'm not what anybody would call a flipper, and I don't turn over a ton of gear. But over nearly 50 years of playing, I've bought and sold a fair number of items, thought not nearly as many as a lot of folks here.

Except in the case of obvious damage, I won't accept returns on things I sell, and I don't expect returns on things I buy. (I'm talking about transactions with private parties, not Amazon or Sweetwater or whoever.) I describe the items I sell as meticulously as I can. If there's a chip or a scratch I can see, I'll tell you. If something isn't working, I'll tell you. The only time something I sold arrived in a state different from the one it was in when I put it in the box was a case where I damaged the item unknowingly in poor light just before packing it up. The buyer showed me a photo, and I knew what must have happened. In that case, I refunded the money immediately on being made aware of the damage. Other than that, I can't recall anyone who bought one of my items ever complaining that the condition of the sold item was different from the way I described it.

My feeling is, I'm not a store who has any investment in maintaining a long-term relationship with a customer (and get them to buy more stuff). I'm just one guy trying to do one fair deal with one other person. Beyond that, I'm not in the customer service business. I don't have the bandwidth or the inclination for that.

I'll fulfill everything I promise to do as a seller, but once I do that, I'm not responsible for whether you bond with the instrument or decide it's not for you or whatever. You're responsible for knowing what you want and dealing with it if you don't end up liking what you got. To put it bluntly, if I've held up my end as a seller, part of your end as a buyer (besides payment) is to take full ownership of and responsibility for what's now YOUR item, not mine, and not to bother me with your second thoughts; they're just not my problem.

So, to take an example mentioned earlier, I would never in a million years give a buyer a month's tryout on an item I was selling. Look at my pics, read the description, check my feedback carefully, email me if you want to, consider whether that's enough for you to rely on ... and then either buy the thing or don't. No blame or hard feelings either way. If UPS destroys it in shipping, let me know and we'll work through that; I won't leave you hanging. But don't come back to me with a case of buyer's remorse; I don't feel obliged to deal with that.

I'm not trying to be harsh; again, I'm a very conscientious seller, and my feedback has been excellent. But boundaries are necessary, and these are mine as a private seller.

I do know that this attitude could cut down the number of potential buyers. I understand that and make no complaints about it; I'm perfectly content for that to be the case.