AudioKinesis 112 Cab

[JimmyM]

sweet cab...duke's work is very well thought out and one day i hope to own one or two of his cabs.

 

[thudfromafar]

 

[rpsands]

It looks kinda unassuming

 

[Petebass]

Sound matters most of course!

This is not a criticism, rather an observation......I've built cabs before that look like this and 95% of the comments I received were about the look, more specifically the use of the round grille and the lack of a recessed front baffle. The feedback I got was overwhelmingly that it made the cabs look a little too home-made.

I now recess my front baffles by an inch, and make a grille that covers the whole face of the cab and you know what, now the only comments I get are about how professional they look, how nice they sound, and how light they are.

So far people seem to like the look of this cab, but that's people who know how much went into the design. What would the less informed potential customer think? I'm sure they could be bought up to speed without too much trouble

 

[DukeLeJeune]

4) Horn... my gosh, again, paper cone warm and smooth up top. One switch turns off the horn compeletely. Most would never use that. The second switch is a beauty, and just rolls off the upper treble sizzle... making it sound a bit like one of the 12/6 two way cabs.

I "voiced" the rolloff switch based on what sounded good with electric guitar, so that may be why it's reminiscent of a paper cone. It's a very gentle rolloff; maybe it would be more descriptive for me to call it a "tiltdown" switch.

I wish I knew enough about crossovers to intelligently comment on this one. The only thing I can say is you would think this is one big speaker or something. A totally transparent transition from the driver to the horn.. really a bit disturbing when you are playing it looking at that big horn, yet hearing a smooth, organic sort of tone. Don't get me wrong... it goes all the way up to the sizzle area, but it is totally smooth and, well, 'good sounding'.

With the switch set at that 3.5K cut-off (if I have that right... I'm going to ask Duke to post up the nitty gritty on that stuff here), you would never know there is even a horn in this thing.

Thank you very much; the crossover is where I will either succeed or fail in this market, as that's where I try to differentiate myself from most of the competition. It's not easy to get a horn to not sound like a horn, but I think that in some applications a good horn is quite competitive with a good cone.

Can't really evaluate the true low end yet, since I assume it will break in a bit. The low end is good already, although I hear just a touch of roll-off of the deepest low end fundamental as you get to the 'D and below' on the B string... but still clean and punchy and full. I'm betting that comes back in a touch, although Duke did say he didn't go out of his way to go super low with this one.

The woofer I'm using actually isn't what I expected to get from Eminence when I made my request for a "4 ohm version of the 3012LF". I was expecting lower efficiency and more bottom end. But then this woofer came in and I measured it, and my little wheels started a-turning. It was telling me that it wanted to be in a small box, and that it could be crossed over higher than the stock 3012LF which would decrease the parts cost for the horn section. In contrast, the stock 3012LF wants a bigger box and will reward you with deeper bass extension, at the expense of some efficiency. Cruising the Talkbass threads, it seemed to me that there was more of a market niche for the smaller and lighter cab, so that's why I went with this particular woofer. Thunderchild won't be all things to all people, but hopefully it will be enough things to enough people.

I do have a multi-role cab that uses the stock 3012LF and a horn (with a different compression driver), but predictably it's bigger and heavier and more expensive. I'm not really campaigning it as a bass cab because I think you can accomplish essentially the same thing with a fEarful 12/6/1 or equivalent from Low Down Sound.

That looks excellent! Just shows that it's all about the precise components and implementation when it comes to what the cab sounds like - tweeters, crossovers and of course the huge variance between a 'super 12' and the more run of the mill but superficially similar woofers. By the way, we do have a company name: Barefaced - I'm just the boss!

Thank you, Alex. What you've done at Barefaced was inspirational to me, as it showed that there is a market for a better mousetrap even if it's inevitiably more expensive.

This could be a great alternative to a 1212 cabinet. I'm interested in it from a doubler's perspective.

I hope to do a version optimized for double bass and other acoustic instruments. It would use the same box and woofer, but a more expensive horn section that would, among other things, allow a lower crossover frequency. The crossover frequency in Thunderchild is a bit higher than what I consider ideal for this format.

sweet cab...duke's work is very well thought out and one day i hope to own one or two of his cabs.

Jimmy has been patiently waiting for me to do "one or two of my cabs" for him for many many moons. The design has gone through several generations and convolutions since he beta-tested a 2x12 for me last year, and his comments about possibly using it for vocals inspired me to work harder on the crossovers for both the 2x12 and Thunderchild. The 2x12 will use the stock 3012LF (two in parallel for 4 ohms) and a more expensive, more "ideal" high frequency section.

 

[rpsands]

One thing to note is that you are more than price competitive with people like Bergantino, Accugroove, and other boutique folks. You're not price competitive with LDS, but you've also really engineered the heck out of one cabinet as opposed to building a ton of different designs with a somewhat lesser degree of refinement.

I'm sorry for branding you as pricey since that's not really fair; you're charging a fair price in the target market and offering something no one else really is, which is a two-part recipe for lots of well-deserved success (imho).

For me personally I'm in the price market where if I want to afford a collection of Dingwalls I have to make some sacrifices in cabinets and amps, so it feels pricey to me, but really it's not, relatively.

 

[JimmyM]

duke, i'm still patient and i totally trust you. when you say it's ready, i'm sure it will be awesome, and i can wait just as long as it takes for you to be comfy cozy with it.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I've built cabs before that look like this and 95% of the comments I received were about the look, more specifically the use of the round grille and the lack of a recessed front baffle. The feedback I got was overwhelmingly that it made the cabs look a little too home-made.

"Home-made"? Dude, you don't know how close to the truth you are... or do you??

I now recess my front baffles by an inch, and make a grille that covers the whole face of the cab and you know what, now the only comments I get are about how professional they look, how nice they sound, and how light they are.

One of the convolutions mentioned regarding the 2x12 was me going back and forth between a conventional-looking cab with the recess and large rectangular grill, and the flush-mount format with the round waffle grill. The latters sounds better to me.

Here's a quick experiment you can try: Take the first two fingers of each hand and place them alongside your mouth, not cupping, just straight - so that you get a roughly 1" high recess on either side. Now talk, listening to the tonal quality of your voice. Okay, now put your hands back down and talk again.

If those had been cabs, which would you rather play through?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

One thing to note is that you are more than price competitive with people like Bergantino, Accugroove, and other boutique folks. You're not price competitive with LDS, but you've also really engineered the heck out of one cabinet as opposed to building a ton of different designs with a somewhat lesser degree of refinement.

Thank you. Note that Don ((LDS) has a crossover guy he can call on too, and a very good one at that. So if he wants to, there's a fair chance that he can beat me at my own game and do it for less money.

I'm sorry for branding you as pricey since that's not really fair; you're charging a fair price in the target market and offering something no one else really is, which is a two-part recipe for lots of well-deserved success (imho).

For me personally I'm in the price market where if I want to afford a collection of Dingwalls I have to make some sacrifices in cabinets and amps, so it feels pricey to me, but really it's not, relatively.

If you branded me as "pricey" I missed it, but it would have been accurate.

I really would like to offer less expensive cabs, but the area where I think I can compete is unfortunately up in the realm where the crossover is a significant piece of the puzzle. I have ideas for simpler cabs, but there's just not much added value for me to contribute, nor as much return for time invested in building the darn box, nor much differentiation relative to the competition.

duke, i'm still patient and i totally trust you. when you say it's ready, i'm sure it will be awesome, and i can wait just as long as it takes for you to be comfy cozy with it.

Thank you very much, Jimmy. I have cut boards in the workshop, and will be assembling them concurrent with my next batch of Thunderchilds. Thunderchildren. Whatever.

 

[4StringTheorist]

Thank you very much, Jimmy. I have cut boards in the workshop, and will be assembling them concurrent with my next batch of Thunderchilds. Thunderchildren. Whatever.

The moment my Steinberger sells (if indeed it ever does), my order is in for one of the next batch. This'll be the perfect conclusion to selling off my rig to down-size it.

 

[lbwdog]

Man Oh Man!! If this can fit my niche, it might just be the one for me. I would love a comparison between it, a 12/6, & a 15/6.
Right now, my Carvin LS 1503(w/3015LF) is doing a very adequate job with my classic band, but the Dr Bass 1260SF was just shy of reaching the volume and low-end requirements.

In the other thread, Duke was being very modest and unassuming with me regarding the Thunderchild/Carvin comparison, but I'm thinking that the Thunderchild just may be enough to get the job done at a wonderful weight reduction.

Ken....keep posting your thoughts on these comparisons regarding the "bigness of sound", as I'm really, really, really starting to want one. Judging by what I've read, I would think it might be just a tad shy of the fEarful type 12/6's low-end/volume performance, which could quite possibly fit that niche!

 

[Hollow Man]

Thanks a lot Ken... now I'm on Duke's waiting list too.

This thing looks great!

 

[hensonbass]

I had a good feeling about this when I pre-ordered mine back in August after speaking with Duke. I'm getting the feeling that the bar has been raised again in compact bass cabs (at least on this side of the Atlantic). Can't wait to get mine.

 

[jnewmark]

Sounds good from all reports so far, but, the proof is in the pudding, or gig, in this case. I will be anxious to read some reports of how this cab does on the gig, especially if there is no FOH support. I have never played a 112 cab that has cut it in any band situation I've ever been in without PA support, so if this one can, I will definitely be interested.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

I have been following this product for months, Itseems like such a well thought out and engineered product fromnt he outside looking in. I find it very interesting to see basically a high end HI-Fi guy's take ont eh bass cab.

I'm also curious how this sounds with recorded music, or possibly if used as a pair for a small PA selup. I understand that is asking a lot, but I think it might be up to it.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Sounds good from all reports so far, but, the proof is in the pudding, or gig, in this case. I will be anxious to read some reports of how this cab does on the gig, especially if there is no FOH support. I have never played a 112 cab that has cut it in any band situation I've ever been in without PA support...

So... what you're saying is that the proof of the pudding isn't in the hype??

;^)

I expect my cab to play louder than most 1x12s but fall short of a 2x12. In displacement-limited output, it's roughly comparable to a 3x10.

I have been following this product for months, Itseems like such a well thought out and engineered product fromnt he outside looking in. I find it very interesting to see basically a high end HI-Fi guy's take ont eh bass cab.

I'm also curious how this sounds with recorded music, or possibly if used as a pair for a small PA selup. I understand that is asking a lot, but I think it might be up to it.

I think it would work fine for PA; basically it's a little PA cab that's optimized for bass guitar. One possible problem is that it doesn't have a tophat on the bottom of the enclosure for pole mounting, and installing a tophat would be complicated because the bottom of the cabinet is occupied by the crossover. I'd have to split the crossover onto two boards and mount them on the sides, which can be done, I suppose - but my point is, installing a tophat is more complex than it would seem at first glance.

Home audio style inputs can be installed as an option, in addition to the Speakeron/quarter inch jacks. I use recorded music in the crossover design phase, and the cab is voiced a little bit brighter than most high-end home audio speakers. The reason is, more high frequency energy is lost to various causes in a prosound setting. In a home audio setting, I would recommend severe toe-in such that the axes criss-cross in front of the normal listening position. This helps with the brightness and results in good soundstaging and good tonal balance across a wide area.

Here's a shot of some of my home audio speakers that actually have the recommended 45 degrees of toe-in built into the design:

http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/wi.mpl?u=2112&f=LoneStar2010.jpg&w=900&h=595

I'd be curious how other amplified instruments sound through the Thunderchild in a band practice setting, just in case there are other applications.

The 2x12 that's in the pipeline will perform better for PA in many settings, but it will be a lot heavier and more expensive. However JimmyM's intention to use it for vocals not only caused me to rework its crossover, but also influenced the crossover design of the Thunderchild. As it now stands Thunderchild probably has better midrange clarity than the cab JimmyM beta-tested, but the production version of the 2x12 will outperform Thunderchild in that regard.

 

[rpsands]

One thing to note is most PA cabs are much, much louder in the midrange than they are down low (even below 200-400hz or so) and people tend to use either DSP or electronic crossovers (Either EQ or triamping) to pull the volume down to flat. Very few passive PA cabs are going to require as little Eq as the thunderchild, but on the flipside the thunderchild necessarily have the ridiculous upper mid/mid sensitivity that some PA cabs have (which can come in handy in some circumstances).

 

[Jeff Scott]

Here's a shot of some of my home audio speakers that actually have the recommended 45 degrees of toe-in built into the design:

http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/wi.mpl?u=2112&f=LoneStar2010.jpg&w=900&h=595

Interesting! I am surprised, though, that you have grills over the LF drivers for home audio use. Does your crossover design correct for time alignment of the drivers, or is that irrelevant in a design with a horn? How efficient are they? Do they require much power to get to typical listening levels for home stereo use?

Was that photo from a CES type of show?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Interesting! I am surprised, though, that you have grills over the LF drivers for home audio use. Does your crossover design correct for time alignment of the drivers, or is that irrelevant in a design with a horn? How efficient are they? Do they require much power to get to typical listening levels for home stereo use?

Was that photo from a CES type of show?

That was the Lone Star Audio Fest, held in Dallas last May. A small, perhaps "regional" audio show - nowhere near the scale of CES. Here's a thread on a home audio forum; I'm rather proud of the post by OzarkTom on page three:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78557.0

Yeah, the waffle grilles got mixed reviews. I installed them to protect the speakers during the car ride to the show, and they have no measurable effect on the midrange performance. They are easily removed, but the front baffle is too narrow for the woofers to be flush-mounted. Normally I do not even include the grilles unless the customer wants 'em.

The drivers are in-phase at the crossover frequency, though of course the phase of each is rotating rapidly as they roll off. The depth of the horn plays a beneficial role as far as time alignment goes, and gets taken into account during the crossover design phase.

I claim 93 dB efficiency, and between 5 and 50 watts per channel is a good ballpark for home use (tubes being preferred in a low wattage appliction). But you could bring a 500 watt amp if you want to; the woofer is the 3012LF (stock 8-ohm version). Yeah that's right - sometimes ideas come from my home audio world into my bass cab world, and sometimes they go the other way! I don't think anyone else is using the 3012LF for home audio. Maybe greenboy.

 

[theNoseBleedKid]

This cabinet sounds and looks really interesting!