AudioKinesis 1x12 Cab Part Two

[IntrepidCellist]

"Old Technology" doesn't necessarily mean "bad." The best bass sound I've ever gotten was with a 30W Mesa guitar head into an old Fender sealed guitar 2x12. Sure, it won't reproduce at gig levels, and it's not as efficient or durable or powerful or loud as a modern (say, Kappalite) driven cab, but damn did it sound good.

Just because someone's not using top-spec ultra-modern drivers doesn't mean they do any less work on the design. You still can't necessarily reproduce a Berg cabinet exactly with off-the-shelf parts. That's the distinction he's making. It's not designed to be DIY like the fEarful was. Greenboy may have started out making for himself, but because he was making for himself, he didn't have the ability or need to order a run of custom Eminences designed for his specifications.

Instead, he did what he could do, which was design the enclosures around the speakers.

Now, this is entirely too heated of a discussion anyways, considering how friendly all of the actual builders/designers involved are!

 

[KJung]

^ However, he does have a point that the fEarfuls were designed from the ground up to be a DIY endeavor, since they use stock parts and speakers and all of the engineering work is done already. Thus, they make a lot of sense to do flatpacks.

Cabs like the Bergantinos, the Baers, and the Thunderchild use custom OEM woofers and are a little more "proprietary," and thus make more sense as a complete, assembled package.

Exactly.

 

[rpsands]

I'd be interested for Duke to weigh in on which aspect of the process is more consuming for him from an engineering standpoint -- designing the crossover and selecting off-the-shelf components, or getting the custom woofer right.

 

[KJung]

Lumping Andy/Roger/Duke in with Bergantino is a mistake.

Wow! As usual, my experience results in me completely disagreeing to virtually everything you post.

 

[IntrepidCellist]

Well, obviously for him the woofer took less time since he had an Eminence engineer working on a lot of the particulars

 

[rpsands]

Exactly.

Duke's cabinets that use stock woofers (which he was suggesting offering in flat packs, since he can't sell his OEM speaker in flat packs) use 100% off the shelf components. So the argument is silly...sure, he designed them, but in the exact same sense as Greenboy did.

 

[rpsands]

Wow! As usual, my experience results in me completely disagreeing to virtually everything you post.

I've played Berg cabs (plural). They're nice. But (I have to assume for the sake of looks/marketability?) he makes enough elementary design mistakes that I wouldn't put him in the same camp as the guys who are really using the science.

Things like putting midrange drivers down by your knees, staggering drivers for no particular reason, posting misleading/inaccurate values for specs, etc.

They sound great, but so do tons of other major brands.

** IMHO, Genz' cabinets are in the same league as Berg from a design quality standpoint, by and large.

 

[IntrepidCellist]

It's all different markets, rpsands.

Some people might prefer an Aston Martin DB9 over a Lexus LFA. The LFA is faster, turns quicker, lighter, has better gas mileage, screams like an F1 car, has pin-sharp handling, and is built with more high-tech materials.

A DB9 is heavier and uses older technology in the engine and design, so it's not as efficient, fast, grippy, or precise; but it's prettier, more comfortable, roars instead of screams, and appeals to a different market than the LFA.

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It's obviously an imperfect analogy.

Performance is not always the end goal. Bergantino makes Aston Martins, basically. More traditional aesthetics and engineering, but to a higher degree than the original designs. Less precise, but in a good way. Yet both are high-quality boutique products.

 

[rpsands]

I'd say Bergantino and Genz make Ferraris and Porsches or whatever.

Duke, Acme and Baer are making Shelby Cobras.

** Whatever, I know jack about cars. Let's just agree to disagree and I'll stop crapping up this thread.

** Any chance you guys can stop with equating LDS and fEarful engineering standards, too?

 

[1n3]

^ However, he does have a point that the fEarfuls were designed from the ground up to be a DIY endeavor, since they use stock parts and speakers and all of the engineering work is done already. Thus, they make a lot of sense to do flatpacks.

This is a subtle but significant rewording. If only this had been said, and LDS had not been mentioned, I wouldn't have commented.

I don't want to further clutter up a TC thread, so will try to bow out here.

Edit:

...since they use stock parts and speakers and all of the engineering work is done already.

Didn't read carefully enough, since I missed this. Absolutely not true, as the fEARful threads show.

Apologies for my part in this thread derail. I have great respect for Duke and his products. No slight to either is intended.

 

[greenboy]

Wow, what a crockfest. I have OEM 4-ohm drivers designed for me too. BFD. There is nothing inherently superior about them. In fact if I wasn't after 4-ohm loads, I'd consider the 8-ohm drivers superior in every aspect for what I want in a driver. Fact is, there's not a thing I could do to improve them without sacrificing in part something else about them.

You who are trying to make this into a BFD must think there's something inherently superior about the person who gets into an OEM program but the reality of the situation is so much more staid and rote. Truth is, you could go in being a total nonce and not have to be any smarter about it all at the end of the process, and still get by. It's actually a real sleepfest because you aren't actually doing much at all except for saying "I want these things changed and am willing to pay for them in these other areas". You might express that in specific T-S parameters, or you might generalize but the result is about the same.

Then a sample gets sent to you, and you either use it, or say, "no, that's not good enough, try again" or decide it's not even worth it because you just found a better driver elsewhere - a STOCK driver at that. Anybody who romanticizes this OEM process or thinks it make them a better designer is a poor deluded fool, or trying to convince others they are a god among men. But that title would actually go to originating driver designers way before it would go to the OEM-ordering guy near the end of the pipeline.

Which is not to knock the reasons why Duke went after an OEM build. He had a couple reasons both technical and in market position to do so. Anyway, Duke and I have the highest respect for each other, probably know a lot more about the inner working of each others' processes than you guys are ever gonna get a glimpse of unless you are wasting less time on these forums gossiping and running routines, and more time researching, experimenting, digging. It's been real obvious over time how some people are running agendas here rather than discussing actual art of engineering. Try to make me look like even more of a po'r ol' country hick than I a'ready is, a hick who lucked out with an outhouse kit that's oh-so-quaint. Yup yup yup - what fun to try and ruin a guy's already humble place in the scheme of things. Must be real satisfying.

 

[Stumbo]

I would like to thank Duke for sharing his interest in getting his cabs into more TB'rs hands by possibly offering "cut kits".

Whether or not he should do it pretty much comes down to profitability. If he comes up with a business model where he can make enough profit selling kits/plans and doesn't have to put his own physical labor into it, maybe that might be satisfactory for him.

After following Greenboy's fEARful threads, I don't really recall DIY built cabinets being posted about as downgraded sonically when compared to pre-built cabinets. While some don't care for the "hi-fi" tone, that's another thread.

With Duke's attention to detail, customer service and desire to create a world class product, it would seem to me that a profit center created around DIY kits would fit the same niche as fEARfuls or BFM cabs do. It's buyer's choice: pre-built or DIY.

As far as I am aware, Duke's business model is different right now in that he builds the cabs whereas BFM and Greenboy do not.

Seem to me like a win-win for everyone.

 

[greenboy]

A little clarification: now I build cabs every bit as much as a lot of other companies do. Which is to say, someone else is actually cutting the wood and doing the glue-up and finish work. You'd be surprised how many names both small and large, from bassland and from the larger world, do not actually manufacture their own products (a lot of them don't even do their own design, ferchysake).

I myself could have fEARfuls run off by the container load if I wanted either here in the US, or in China - watercut or laser CNC even, if I cared to. Whether it would make sense to do this with quaint little one-hole or two-hole outhouses in today's economy, however...

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I appreciate everyone's input here. For the record, I consider Greenboy to be at the cutting edge of bass cab design, and my own little venture owes a great deal to him. He is not only one of my teachers, he is my friend.

Okay, the cutkit thing looks impractical to me. Great idea if I wanted to be primarily a kit manufacturer, but not if I want to offer kits on the side and spend most of my time building cabs.

I spent a few hours running numbers this afternoon, and at this point it doesn't look like I can offer even a barebones that would really be competitive price-wise. Maybe if my scale of operations was larger, but unfortunately that's just not the case.

 

[greenboy]

We should go into business together and have container loads of product shipped over from China, and use the empties to keep the cash in.

 

[dog1]

I appreciate everyone's input here. For the record, I consider Greenboy to be at the cutting edge of bass cab design, and my own little venture owes a great deal to him. He is not only one of my teachers, he is my friend.

Okay, the cutkit thing looks impractical to me. Great idea if I wanted to be primarily a kit manufacturer, but not if I want to offer kits on the side and spend most of my time building cabs.

I spent a few hours running numbers this afternoon, and at this point it doesn't look like I can offer even a barebones that would really be competitive price-wise. Maybe if my scale of operations was larger, but unfortunately that's just not the case.

Yeah, the "made in China" thing has really hurt us here in the States. (or made wherever) As a guy who does quality builds, I know that even my own cabs are not cheap. A guy can have 500 bucks just in components, not to mention the materials to build the cab. And at probably a whole day to produce just one, start to finish, real high quality stuff can not compete price wise with imports. Luckily, we can make them for ourselves.

 

[JimmyM]

We should go into business together and have container loads of product shipped over from China, and use the empties to keep the cash in.

If you don't, someone else will.

 

[bobcruz]

We should go into business together and have container loads of product shipped over from China, and use the empties to keep the cash in.

I'd buy an imported fEarful or Thunderchild if it was well made and a bargain.

 

[KJung]

Okay, the cutkit thing looks impractical to me. Great idea if I wanted to be primarily a kit manufacturer, but not if I want to offer kits on the side and spend most of my time building cabs.

I spent a few hours running numbers this afternoon, and at this point it doesn't look like I can offer even a barebones that would really be competitive price-wise. Maybe if my scale of operations was larger, but unfortunately that's just not the case.

Good decision. I think any kind of kit would tend to cheapen your brand reputation, and would have minimal profit potential. Your time would be much better spent in building your brand (i.e., the proprietary nature of your product, components, etc.) by finally getting a professional website up that focuses on your bass cab(s), and building some efficiencies into your production process (i.e., focusing on a single product to get economies of scale, and possibly outsourcing the actual woodwork if possible).

If you finally figure out how to crank these out in relatively large quantities, a very limited dealer network (one or two high end on-line dealers that specialize in unique brands, like Austin Bass Traders) MIGHT also make sense, if you can work out a way to keep their price and your direct price the same, but still make it worth it to both of you profit-wise.

You have a truly unique product there in tone, size, output, impedance, power handling, etc., etc. Nothing else like it that I've played or tried.

 

[Cashu]

Those of you who have the 115 on order, any thoughts on the two configurations being offered, wide or compact? My 115 won't be coming for a while, so hopefully there will be some comparisons before I have to make a decision.