AudioKinesis 1x12 Cab Part Two

[Ric Vice]

.........
I would really like to offer something to bass players who don't have the big bucks. Do you think there would be any interest in a barebones kit? Drivers + crossover + cabinet plans. The buyer would build & finish the cabinet, outfit it with hardware that he buys .......... install the crossover and drivers and hook everything up.

Duke,
I had my father in law build an Electro-Voice TL Box out of baltic birch year's ago. How difficult is the joinery on the corners of the Thunderchild 112 and 115? What level of skill is needed to cut, assemble and tune the ports, since there are four of them on the TC 115? Cabinetry is an art as well as a science, as you well know.

I'm not allowed to offer my custom woofers in a kit, so we'd have to use off-the-shelf woofers. Fortunately there are some very nice ones available, like the 8-ohm Kappalite 3015 (non-LF), and at a more affordable price point the 4-ohm Legend CA154.

That raises the question about the difference in sound that would come as a result of using of the shelf woofers vs the version that you have designed and tweaked to work optimally in that cabinet.

I've been kicking this idea around for a while, so let me know what you think.

I vividly remember the difference between Knight Kit electronic kits and their Heath Kit counterparts. The Heath product was far superior. So the level of skill required to build a Thunderchild 115 is beyond my reach as an individual. IF you offered
a kit I'd definitely be asking for someones help with the build.



Ric

 

[dog1]

Holy smoke. I need an aspirin. After reading this whole thread, I have a headache. I wish I had the intelligence and know how to understand all that has been said. But even though I don't, I am glad that those who know are working things out for those of us who just play, Thank God for the high tech guys. We certainly need them, as they make our bass world a better place. Thank you.

 

[ACB0015]

The Thunderchild and fEARful cabs are not too expensive. Too expensive is paying a lot of money for inferior results. I like greenboy's model of having a stable of authorized builders in various parts of the country who can provide a professionally built product to the end user. Leland will provide completely built and finished fEARful cabs as well as the flatpack kits, the price differential there would be a direct measurement of the advantages of purchasing a kit.
DIY is a different story and probably the least cash outlay but time required for the inexperienced may make it not cost effective. But I have seen results that look amazing and others that project a very home-made vibe. The possibilities for personalizing the finish/decor of the cabs are limitless.

 

[PDGood]

I would really like to offer something to bass players who don't have the big bucks. Do you think there would be any interest in a barebones kit? Drivers + crossover + cabinet plans. The buyer would build & finish the cabinet, outfit it with hardware that he buys (I have no desire to warehouse & resell cabinet hardware), and install the crossover and drivers and hook everything up.
I've been kicking this idea around for a while, so let me know what you think.

Pretty cool idea, actually.

 

[JimmyM]

How idiot proof are cabs assembled from kits?

 

[johnk_10]

I would really like to offer something to bass players who don't have the big bucks. Do you think there would be any interest in a barebones kit? Drivers + crossover + cabinet plans. The buyer would build & finish the cabinet, outfit it with hardware that he buys (I have no desire to warehouse & resell cabinet hardware), and install the crossover and drivers and hook everything up.

I've been kicking this idea around for a while, so let me know what you think.

i'd definitely be interested in one in kit form with plans (since i can make the xo and cabinet myself).

 

[DukeLeJeune]

My take on the whole thing is that you've got a few types of players out there. The guys who're rolling with stacks of used 1990s 4x10 cabs because they're affordable are not going to buy a 700 dollar cab and they're not going to buy an 800 dollar cab....

That said I don't think there's that much market for kits. The savings are just not that great.

Yes, I guess the efficient way for a young musician to save money is to buy a used cab, not to build a kit.

[Having to use off-the-shelf woofers] raises the question about the difference in sound that would come as a result of using of the shelf woofers vs the version that you have designed and tweaked to work optimally in that cabinet.

A cab (kit or othewise) with off-the-shelf woofers would embody a different set of tradeoffs, and I don't know any way to get around that. However "different" isn't necessarily a bad thing; there are some killer cabs out there that use off-the-shelf drivers, and clearly outperform my cabs in some areas. Cough cough fEarful cough.

How idiot proof are cabs assembled from kits?

Very good point, and a potential deal-killer for the whole kit concept. I really don't want to end up spending a great deal of time dealing with cabinet assembly issues, as time is often one of the things in short supply for me. Not that I'm ever actually running behind on anything...

i'd definitely be interested in one in kit form with plans (since i can make the xo and cabinet myself).

At a minimum, I would want to supply the drivers and finished crossover, so that there's some way for me to make money at it.

 

[johnk_10]

At a minimum, I would want to supply the drivers and finished crossover, so that there's some way for me to make money at it.

that would be fine w/me.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

How idiot proof are cabs assembled from kits?

...Very good point, and a potential deal-killer for the whole kit concept. I really don't want to end up spending a great deal of time dealing with cabinet assembly issues, as time is often one of the things in short supply for me. Not that I'm ever actually running behind on anything...

Who are you calling an idiot?

Seriously, though, that's a good point. Greenboy has a whole forum dedicated to customer support for the fEarful line, and I imagine that Leland still has to spend a fair amount of time handholding people who have messed up their cabinet builds.

I know that in the heyday of electronic kits, Heathkit and others used to offer a paid service, where they would troubleshoot customer build errors. Even today, companies like Mission Amps offer the same thing for their guitar amp kits. In some cases, the repair cost must be higher than the kit itself, which can't be good for public relations.

I would think the potential for that sort of thing would be even higher with cabinet kits. How much repair work can you do on a cab that has parts mounted backwards, or the box is out of square, before it makes more sense to simply grab another sheet of plywood?

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...At a minimum, I would want to supply the drivers and finished crossover, so that there's some way for me to make money at it.

That's another problem with selling kits. Once you put the plans out there, how long before you have guys like Avatar and LDS doing compromised Thunderchild knock-offs?

Of course, I suppose there's always the potential for that sort of thing, no matter what.

 

[lelandcrooks]

The kits are not easy to create. I still have occasional issues with the flat packs, but have pretty much all the assembly kinks worked out. Mostly my stupid mistakes, but it happens.

I don't want to rain on the parade, but it takes a lot of time. I built a couple of cabs, taking fairly meticulous notes along the way. Which fasteners work where, placement issues w hardware, looking for faster methods. Then sourcing the product. I did have a leg up on it as I had already done it with BFM cabs, and fEARfuls build with the same plywood and similar components. Sourcing the stuff in appropriate quantities and finding it is probably the hardest part. I used to own a hardware store and had 15000 sku's, so I have some experience in that area. Through my other business I can still buy like I'm a hardware store, much of what you see on my site comes from there, rather than speaker suppliers.

Flat pack vs prebuilt is a good question. From cut plywood to finished cab is at least a couple of days, even for an experienced builder. Got time, tools and inclination have at it. I know I still take pride in my antique heathkit amplifier I built in college. It's my test bench amp.

 

[Ric Vice]

Yes, I guess the efficient way for a young musician to save money is to buy a used cab, not to build a kit.

Thanks to Ken Jung, that's how I finally got mine. It's my favorite cab for both Double Bass and the Lakland 55-94. Duke, since you mentioned the possibility of someone picking up one used, just how many completed Thunderchild 112's are in circulation? I can't imagine that it's a really big number, since you've only produced them for what, a little under 2 years?

A cab (kit or othewise) with off-the-shelf woofers would embody a different set of tradeoffs, and I don't know any way to get around that. However "different" isn't necessarily a bad thing; there are some killer cabs out there that use off-the-shelf drivers, and clearly outperform my cabs in some areas. Cough cough fEarful cough.

I understand completely, Eminence plays it very close to the vest with it's custom builds. It makes sense that they do that, after all it protects the cabinet builder from someone producing a knock off by preventing them access to the custom components. Walter Woods does the same thing, but in a different way, by removing the part numbers of his components

At a minimum, I would want to supply the drivers and finished crossover, so that there's some way for me to make money at it.

This makes the most sense to me since including precut
cabinet material gives novice builders the illusion that anyone can just slap together a Thunderchild 112.
Ric

 

[IntrepidCellist]

The issue I have with someone like Duke getting into cutkits is that, as a one-man operation with other business to worry about, you will spend far, far too much time unprofitably troubleshooting someone else's build, as well as dealing with the fact that there might be a substandardly-built Thunderchild out there that may not reflect well on the Audiokinesis name. Better I think (speaking as someone who is not a businessman) to focus on the finished product.

It's certainly not cheap (the Baer 112 and Acme 112 are cheaper) but it's smaller, lighter, and I haven't run into a situation where I've needed more in New York. Certainly, if I were doing loud outdoor gigs with minimal PA support I might have issues, but with the Thunderchild my entire load-in is ~42 lbs on a cart or in my hands for cab, head, and pedalboard. Add 8 lbs for a bass and I can go pretty much anywhere.

 

[mixamatchi]

I love my fEarful, and the way I came to build it. I see it as someones pet science project, that blessed us with a good cab. As for a money making project, how about you only offer it as a kit (drivers/crossover/jackplate) including blueprints, but keep the specs on the crossover/drivers to yourself? I like to build cabs, and if you sold a kit this way, you could keep the cost down. I know someone could reverse engineer it for the proprietary data, but most of us just want a cab that works as promised. You have a good rep with that thunderchild, I bet you could sell quite a few "thunderchild 2" diy kits.

 

[KJung]

The concept of Duke coming up with kits are whatever is very strange. It would be like asking Eden or Bergantino to come up with a kit for their cabs. Makes no sense at all, no matter how you look at it.

The fEArful thing was a bit different, since that was just a TBer with no manufacturing capability putting together stock parts into a nice Winsid (or whatever that program is called) designed box, and making plans available to whoever wanted them. So, that was kind of a DIY thing from the start.

For Duke, who designed a cab from the bottom up, with his own proprietary drivers, and actually manufactures them (like Bergantino, EA, etc., etc.), the idea of him putting out a kit is silly.

A great box maker like Don at LDS can build a great 410 or 15/6 or whaver with stock components if that is the the type of cab you want (or if you want an exact fEarful, there are ways to DIY that or find the few manufactures who will 'DIY' that for you or sell you a kit). That makes total sense.

However, if you want a Bergantino or a Thunderchild, save you pennies and buy one

 

[rpsands]

FWIW, without an established community to provide free support for the build process (e.g. the fEarful forums) I don't think it's financially feasible. There are always support issues that will cost you time and money.

 

[1n3]

The fEArful thing was a bit different, since that was just a TBer with no manufacturing capability putting together stock parts into a nice Winsid (or whatever that program is called) designed box, and making plans available to whoever wanted them...

... A great box maker like Don at LDS can build a great 410 or 15/6 or whaver with stock components if that is the the type of cab you want (or if you want an exact fEarful, there are ways to DIY that or find the few manufactures who will 'DIY' that for you or sell you a kit)

This strikes me as faint praise, that understates the quality of Greenboy's designs, and his builder network.

Back to the thread topic... in answer to Duke's question "Do you think there would be any interest in a barebones kit?"...

Interest, probably. But like others, I'm skeptical as to whether kits would be good for Duke, for the reasons already mentioned.

 

[rpsands]

The fEArful thing was a bit different, since that was just a TBer with no manufacturing capability putting together stock parts into a nice Winsid (or whatever that program is called) designed box, and making plans available to whoever wanted them. So, that was kind of a DIY thing from the start.

For Duke, who designed a cab from the bottom up, with his own proprietary drivers, and actually manufactures them (like Bergantino, EA, etc., etc.), the idea of him putting out a kit is silly.

You completely miss the boat on how much work it is to design a multidriver cabinet as always. Comparing the engineering involved in the fEarful and the TC and saying they are in different tiers of engineering quality is ignorance at best.

Listen to what Duke has to say about fEarfuls and crossover design please and stop spreading misinformation like "it's just plugging drivers into winisd" or whatever. That's just crap, and ignores the excellent crossover design, ergonomic engineering, multiple rounds of testing and validating tunings, and so on.

 

[IntrepidCellist]

^ However, he does have a point that the fEarfuls were designed from the ground up to be a DIY endeavor, since they use stock parts and speakers and all of the engineering work is done already. Thus, they make a lot of sense to do flatpacks.

Cabs like the Bergantinos, the Baers, and the Thunderchild use custom OEM woofers and are a little more "proprietary," and thus make more sense as a complete, assembled package.

 

[rpsands]

I don't know if that is entirely true. I think Greenboy started off building for himself and made a few attempts to find someone to build them and so on. Maybe he'll weigh in.

My take--the only difference is one custom woofer here. Duke's using off-the-shelf components for everything except the woofers. That's the only difference.

Duke also has some cabs in the pipe that use standard stock drivers, and has alluded to the idea that he may (by eminence OEM changes) be forced to use stock drivers in the future as well. So it's really closer than you think.

Bottom line, it's a much smaller difference than is outlined.

** One additional point to make is that Bergantino and Genz and others of these vendors are still to this day not using kappalite quality drivers most of the time. Duke and Andy from Acme, and Roger from Baer, use high end motors and components...Berg and Genz for the most part are using old technology in their "custom" woofers (I think the only Kappalite-based woofer that is out there in a cab is the 1288 from Genz).

Lumping Andy/Roger/Duke in with Bergantino is a mistake.