'colored' and 'flat' are two different if somewhat related concepts. As you (hopefully) know, even when two amps are dialed in to look reasonably flat at the preamp stage, they still sound VERY different. SO much more to the voicing of an amp than a simple EQ curve coming out of the preamp.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...
- Thread starter Thor
- Start date
'colored' and 'flat' are two different if somewhat related concepts. As you (hopefully) know, even when two amps are dialed in to look reasonably flat at the preamp stage, they still sound VERY different. SO much more to the voicing of an amp than a simple EQ curve coming out of the preamp.
I didn't realize the Puma 900 was more colored than the MB800. Good to know. Is the Puma 1000 voiced the same as the 900?
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,515
- 19,945
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
And as you (hopefully) know, some amps which are thought of as being "clean" or "transparent" actually introduce a good bit of coloration via "baked in" EQ.
Obviously, finding and using gear which measures out to be very accurate from a frequency response perspective is certainly no all-encompassing panacea for great tone. In fact, in some scenarios, it can lead to exactly the opposite result. However, I do think it's an important part of the puzzle, and I think it is helpful to know the capabilities/limitations/character of your gear when trying to piece together a system that works the best for an individual player (with individual preferences).
And as you (hopefully) know, achieving a very "flat," "accurate," "uncolored," "clean," "clear" or whatever system is not going to be the best approach for every player, with every bass, in every room, etc. Many other factors come into play, including the style of music, the various instruments involved, the particular venues, and most importantly, the player's own subjective preferences.
Again, 'colored' is much more than 'flat'. Those amps sound very different, and that has more to do with distortion levels and power management, etc., etc. than simple EQ curves measured at the preamp.
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,515
- 19,945
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
I haven't played through the new Puma 1000, but at least compared to the first Puma 1000, the preamps have a similar overall voicing (with some differences, as discussed in the full Puma 900 review). The older Puma 1000 used a different class-D output section, as well, so (at least comparing the older Puma 1000 to the Puma 900) the feel and response was quite a bit different.
+1 The original Puma line was VERY different. Much more low end extended, much cleaner in the midrange. Night and day.
I have also not heard the new Puma1000, and continue to find that head a bit more of a 'specialty' execution. It is primarily designed to run a 'normal rig' and then the 'pleasure pad' product (which is why it has that lo pass filtering on the second channel, etc.).
If the OP is using a single 4ohm cab, or two 8ohm cabs, the Puma900 is the way to go IMO, based on size, cost, simplicity and design goals.
The Puma900/500 is glorious with Duke's original TC112 and TC115. Haven't had the pleasure of playing his new cabs, but the newer 8ohm version would benefit from the 900's 8ohm output versus the 500.
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,515
- 19,945
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
Looking at the TecAmp lineup, I would definitely agree. However, I have also had great results using the MB800 with my TC112AF and TC115AF (setting the EQ fairly close to Tom Lees' measured "optimally flat" settings referenced above).
+1 I would think that relatively rough top end of that head (the GK grind sort of thing) would sound great with the very clean, accurate top end of the original (and I assume new) TC cabs, for those who want a bit more 'character' to their tone up top. For a more 'transparent' sort of uber clean, full range tone, with a nice natural bump in the low mid 'meat' area of the bass (which the LF drivers can use IMO), the Puma500 for the 4ohm versions and especially the Puma900 for the 8ohm version (which I believe uses a stock LF driver) would be pretty killin'.
And when reading a review, all you truly know is one players opinion on sound for a particular rig that could be very different than another mans thoughts.
The motorcycle and automotive publications usually have many riders or drivers run the same vehicle on the same course. It is amazing how each person interprets the characteristics of each vehicle. Aside from which can go around the track faster, you get results like, "I set the fastest lap time but I would never buy this twitchy inconsistent, ill handling POS".
Amazing to me that the MI publications assume the reviewer is the end all authority, especially if the reviewer favors a particular signature sound. I assume that readership/funding does not allow for testing by others.
BTW, no attack on BPM as I love the publication but sometimes disagree with reviews based on my own experience with that gear in my own home.
It is a good illustration that a verbal description regarding very fine equipment can be purely subjective (all things equal) for different players.
But you knew all that...
And when reading a review, all you truly know is one players opinion on sound for a particular rig that could be very different than another mans thoughts.
The motorcycle and automotive publications usually have many riders or drivers run the same vehicle on the same course. It is amazing how each person interprets the characteristics of each vehicle. Aside from which can go around the track faster, you get results like, "I set the fastest lap time but I would never buy this twitchy inconsistent, ill handling POS".
Amazing to me that the MI publications assume the reviewer is the end all authority, especially if the reviewer favors a particular signature sound. I assume that readership/funding does not allow for testing by others.
BTW, no attack on BPM as I love the publication but sometimes disagree with reviews based on my own experience with that gear in my own home.
It is a good illustration that a verbal description regarding very fine equipment can be purely subjective (all things equal) for different players.
But you knew all that...
Yeah, bass amplification is a complex system for sure, and the mix and match, which includes amp, cab, player technique, bass, strings, typical volume, etc., etc. all interact for sure!
My thinking that started this, I do believe in the whole system creating the sound: bass->amp->cabinet.
My rig was MTD434/Lull P4 -> GK MB800 -> Bergantino AE 112/210. This rig worked well and sounded good but for various reasons (other than just sound), the Berg pair was replace with a ThunderChild 115-8.
So now it's MTD434/Lull P4 -> GK MB800 -> TC115-8. The basses and cab aren't going to change; they are the constants. I've gigged with this combination and it sounds good but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the best amp for me and my setup.
The two front runners I'd like to try is the Jules De-Monique and the Baer Valkyrie. My concern with the Valkyrie is that it might not have enough power to drive a single 8 ohm cab. With the others, I've played AI amps years ago and really liked the sound and features. I'm thinking the Focus might have enough power to get it done. Regarding the Puma, I was thinking the 1000 with it's higher power rating with 8 ohms.
Obviously, if one could try all these heads at one time, it'd be an easy decision. Instead it's get other's opinions, put the amps in order and start at the top.
Thanks again for everybody's input.
My rig was MTD434/Lull P4 -> GK MB800 -> Bergantino AE 112/210. This rig worked well and sounded good but for various reasons (other than just sound), the Berg pair was replace with a ThunderChild 115-8.
So now it's MTD434/Lull P4 -> GK MB800 -> TC115-8. The basses and cab aren't going to change; they are the constants. I've gigged with this combination and it sounds good but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the best amp for me and my setup.
The two front runners I'd like to try is the Jules De-Monique and the Baer Valkyrie. My concern with the Valkyrie is that it might not have enough power to drive a single 8 ohm cab. With the others, I've played AI amps years ago and really liked the sound and features. I'm thinking the Focus might have enough power to get it done. Regarding the Puma, I was thinking the 1000 with it's higher power rating with 8 ohms.
Obviously, if one could try all these heads at one time, it'd be an easy decision. Instead it's get other's opinions, put the amps in order and start at the top.
Thanks again for everybody's input.
Don't rule out the Markbass LMlll.
I've used it with the TC115 a lot and the TC112 on occasion. It's a great pairing either way.
I've used it with the TC115 a lot and the TC112 on occasion. It's a great pairing either way.
To prove your point, I didn't like the MB800/TC212 pairing. It had a bump in my painful spectrum I couldn't dial out.
Really dug it with the TH500.
If you have the 4 ohm version, I think that is a good pairing.
If used with the 8 ohm TC115, the LMII/LMIII might not have enough 'umph' for some users at that impedance.
For some reason, I'm just not a Markbass fan. Not sure why; I really wanted to like it. From the moment I plugged in I just knew it wouldn't work. But I stuck with one of them for a month or two. I think it was an F500. Even took it on a gig.
Just something about it didn't work for me.
Just something about it didn't work for me.
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Thank you all VERY MUCH for stepping up and responding to Leon with far better information than I could. Lo-freq, Freddels, Steve, Tom, Ken, Jim, PD, nutdog and Scopaz, I really appreciate each of you taking the time.
We all have different tone goals and playing styles and basses and even different hearing. One man's floor is another man's ceiling.
I'm using the LMlll/TC115 combo and I've never gotten so many compliments on tone as I do now. And they're coming from educated ears - music professors, sound men, engineers etc.
I still hope to try a Puma or MBFusion one day, and I'll always experiment with basses, but the cab is not changing.
