I really like the way the HPF's high pass filter works. Actually I like the entire design of that little box. It's much better to have a variable pot on those filters than say a switch.
Ric
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Double Bass AudioKinesis Thunderchild 112 cab
- Thread starter KJung
- Start date
I really like the way the HPF's high pass filter works. Actually I like the entire design of that little box. It's much better to have a variable pot on those filters than say a switch.
Ric
Not to pat myself on the back. but a lot of the design features were my suggestions. And they listened. But if we're talking about what a hpf filter is used for in this application (which is filtering out subsonic junk) to me, even 12db/octave is too low. If you look at most commercial pro eq's the high pass is 24db/octave (i think---please chime in if I'm wrong). The usefulness (is that a word?) of the hpf is more apparent at high volumes. That's where you're coming to the limit of amp power and speaker excursion. At low to medium volumes it's less apparent because you still have some watts left and the speaker hasn't reached it's excursion limit. Even at lower volumes if you can remove the subsonic garbage from your signal path, your sound is punchier and with more clarity. Let's say that you've got a lot of information in the 30hz range. (with a piezo, trust me---you do) If you set your 6db/octave filter at say 50hz (because you don't want to lose too much low end) it's only down 6db at 25 hz and maybe someting like minus 3 db at 37 hz. That's not enough for an appreciable impact on the subsonics. I have a Symetrix 5 band parametric. It has a variable high pass filter. (24 db/octave) I've compared. All you need to do is look at the cone. It's very easily visable. I first found this phenomena out years ago when I had the grill off of a cab . When the G string was played the cone was moving visibly as much as the E string. It's because piezos amplfy physical vibration. And a lot of the "thump" component is non-musical vibrations that are WAY low. So I put the EQ in line and watched the cone movement as I brought the HPF frequency up. You could see the cone movement dramatically decrease. So if you have a cab like the TC (knocks me out more after each gig---and I've never had the bands notice so much) that wants a bit more watts to really strut it's stuff it's put in a difficult situation if it's called upon to amplify the non-musical low stuff.And also, when you take a speaker and give it information below the cabinet's tuning frequency the speaker has lost its air compliance and is flopping around as if in free air. Which means that you lose punch and definition because the speaker is asked to spend most of it's resources (as well as the amp) to try to amplify stuff that muddies up your sound anyway. Which is why we need a steeper slope HPF to allow our amp and speaker to do their best. And on DB, the Doubler really sounds better (with the steeper slope). I'm just not going to carry around a rack space eq to every gig---that's why I've gotten into the lightweight stuff!
Agreed, I'd rather have it on my amp though than have to carry around a little plastic box. And my fdeck doesn't have the battery indicator like I hear the newer versions do, which makes me more reluctant to use it for gigs.
And a steeper slope would be better as Mike says.
- May 6, 2003
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- Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
Thanks for hipping me to this speaker Mike. Looking forward to auditioning one.
Jeremy, I'm hoping for an A/B comparison with the QSC K series when you can.
Jeremy, I'm hoping for an A/B comparison with the QSC K series when you can.
Most definitely! The wait time on the Thunderchild was 12 weeks when I ordered it, so I'm looking at sometime in November. In the meantime, I'm alternating between the school's K12, Mark Bass 12" combo, and GK MB112 (with varying degrees of satisfaction).
I've called---no response. Gary is better with emails. I need help in the prodding department. They respect and listen to me but I'm sure they think that I'm a bit "fringe" I think the more people emailing Gary, the better.
So just email Gary and suggest a mod to increase the HPF slope? I'll do it...
Yeah, but I take back anything that infers that Gary doesn't respond fast enough---John D. just let me know that Gary is on vacation until early Sept.----sorry Gary---you guys have been awesome. And the more people that suggest this to Gary, the better. EA is very good at listening to player's needs and requests
I hope you guys don't mind me posting addendums of my review/experience with the TC. Last night I played what is usually the least satisfying type of gigs. In Chicago if you're not on the road and want to pay your bills you need to be really versatile and solid. Whether it's a rock gig on a Monday, a jazz funk gig on a Wednesday, avant garde gig on a Thurs. or a huge wedding gig on a Saturday, you have to play well and have a good sound that takes care of biz. A lot of players don't get called for certain gigs because their sound doesn't cut it.
Anyhow, the gig was a big industrial gig in a top hotel ballroom. 500 people talking loud and 8 of the top jazzers in town. Hollow stage and we couldn't play too loud. Really hard to hear yourself---didn't want to depend on monitors. Very difficult to get a "thump" that drives the band. To be honest, I was worried about the TC in this context. It has this beautiful low end, but I was worried about its taughtness. In this context I'm not keying in on the mid or high definition, but how functional my walking quarter notes are. I was able to drive the band better with the TC than any other cab I've used. On gigs like this, I'm used to my right hand being sore at the end because I'm playing too hard to be able to cut through. You know when you're in a situation where you really can't turn up any louder for balance sake but you just can't seem to drive the band well enough? Even on REALLY fast walking tunes it was more effortless to drive the band hard, but still in a relaxed fashion. I don't know if I can be clear on this, but my walking style is pushing the beat, pulling a big sound (pulling pretty hard) but at the same time the feel being forward propelling but relaxed. In the ideal circumstance. Yes this was a big dumb gig (that paid well) but I found myself enjoying it more because I felt like I was taking care of biz, but not killing myself.
Anyhow, the gig was a big industrial gig in a top hotel ballroom. 500 people talking loud and 8 of the top jazzers in town. Hollow stage and we couldn't play too loud. Really hard to hear yourself---didn't want to depend on monitors. Very difficult to get a "thump" that drives the band. To be honest, I was worried about the TC in this context. It has this beautiful low end, but I was worried about its taughtness. In this context I'm not keying in on the mid or high definition, but how functional my walking quarter notes are. I was able to drive the band better with the TC than any other cab I've used. On gigs like this, I'm used to my right hand being sore at the end because I'm playing too hard to be able to cut through. You know when you're in a situation where you really can't turn up any louder for balance sake but you just can't seem to drive the band well enough? Even on REALLY fast walking tunes it was more effortless to drive the band hard, but still in a relaxed fashion. I don't know if I can be clear on this, but my walking style is pushing the beat, pulling a big sound (pulling pretty hard) but at the same time the feel being forward propelling but relaxed. In the ideal circumstance. Yes this was a big dumb gig (that paid well) but I found myself enjoying it more because I felt like I was taking care of biz, but not killing myself.
I borrowed Mike's TC last night for a gig at the Jazz Showcase with vocalist and quartet. I paired it with my Doubler, and I played both basses. Really clear, fat and warm. Even on all notes, no funny resonances to deal with, all good stuff coming out. The sax player immediately said "that thing sounds great".
Marc Piane came by, so maybe he will comment. He liked the double bass sound more than the bass guitar from where he was sitting, but there was no tweaking before the gig, I just found sounds I thought were good on stage and went for it. I'd like to play with it some more, but from this one experience, I'd say this is a wonderful cabinet.
Marc Piane came by, so maybe he will comment. He liked the double bass sound more than the bass guitar from where he was sitting, but there was no tweaking before the gig, I just found sounds I thought were good on stage and went for it. I'd like to play with it some more, but from this one experience, I'd say this is a wonderful cabinet.
Eric,
I'm glad that you like the cabinet. It's just been great for all the gigs I play here in St. Louis. I'm trying it out at one of the worst concert spaces here next Monday evening.
The Webster University Jazz concert series is held in a space that was once a chapel for a convent. It's a really tough room. We'll see how it does. We usually have to put all the amps up on chairs just to reduce the terrible bass rumble that occurs in the hall.
Ric
Hey Ric
Bring one of the plugs with. At home I tried it with a plug. Not as full sounding but might be the ticket for a boomy room. This is one cab (in my experience) that doesn't like being on a chair.
Bring one of the plugs with. At home I tried it with a plug. Not as full sounding but might be the ticket for a boomy room. This is one cab (in my experience) that doesn't like being on a chair.
That kind of describes the Doubler, in my experience. So maybe that wasn't the TC's responsibility?
I'm doing a remarkably good job of not counting the days til I get my TC. I picked up an old Fishman Dual Parametric EQ/DI to run into a QSC K12, and I have to admit it's a pretty sweet combination. But when the TC gets here in November (I hope), it'll just be like an early x-mas...
The Doubler and the TC sound really good together with one qualification and one caveat. The TC (for me) puts out a lot more bass when set flat than other cabs. Not deep bass, but 50 to 100 hz. I'm finding myself running flat on bass eq where I'd be at 2 to 3 o'clock on most other cabs. In other words, it's easy to get caught up in the romance of more bass, but it can be at the expense of cutting through. My first gig on electric with it I set the bass at my typical 2 o'clock with the doubler. Sounded lush and amazing. Once the band kicked in---too lush until I backed down the lows.
The Doubler sounds great on electric until you really start kicking it. For me, perfect for all electric gigs unless they're LOUD. When pushed like that, I think the Doubler loses definition. The Doubler with the EA CXL12 worked a bit better at high volumes. Not as good of a sound and definitely more distortion. The CXL is much thinner sounding. Maybe the added mids of the CXL helps it cut through when the amp is protesting at producing more bass. I think the weakness is more the Doubler, although I don't know a better amp for DB (even at high volumes) or for a 50/50 doubler like me.
Chris---we should all bug Fishman to make that again. I talked to an engineer there and he thought that it was the best piece of gear they ever made. But it didn't sell.
The Doubler sounds great on electric until you really start kicking it. For me, perfect for all electric gigs unless they're LOUD. When pushed like that, I think the Doubler loses definition. The Doubler with the EA CXL12 worked a bit better at high volumes. Not as good of a sound and definitely more distortion. The CXL is much thinner sounding. Maybe the added mids of the CXL helps it cut through when the amp is protesting at producing more bass. I think the weakness is more the Doubler, although I don't know a better amp for DB (even at high volumes) or for a 50/50 doubler like me.
Chris---we should all bug Fishman to make that again. I talked to an engineer there and he thought that it was the best piece of gear they ever made. But it didn't sell.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
FWIW, I recall Duke posting a warning that using only one plug could potentially harm the driver; both or none were his recommendations.
Jeremy and Mike,
Not sure where you are going with the doubler comments?
First I absolutely love my doubler with electric, I understand that is subjective so I will respect your opinion.
In terms of playing loud gigs, I've played bars with a few hundred people using an nl210 and running the doubler with both master and preamp gain at maximum. No additional distortion or compression of the low end. I've also played to crowds of 1000 or more using 2x nl20.
While I might see the absolute volume output of this amp to be limiting, distortion or compression is not something that has been an issue. Also as a guy that does many more gigs on electric then DB I feel the strength of the amp is it's great electric tone. So to each his own.
I did play a tc12 with electric at the NYC GTG and many of the comments you've attributed to the doubler I posted earlier in the other TC thread, accept I wasn't using a doubler.
Maybe this combination just doesn't make a good pairing for electric?
Not sure where you are going with the doubler comments?
First I absolutely love my doubler with electric, I understand that is subjective so I will respect your opinion.
In terms of playing loud gigs, I've played bars with a few hundred people using an nl210 and running the doubler with both master and preamp gain at maximum. No additional distortion or compression of the low end. I've also played to crowds of 1000 or more using 2x nl20.
While I might see the absolute volume output of this amp to be limiting, distortion or compression is not something that has been an issue. Also as a guy that does many more gigs on electric then DB I feel the strength of the amp is it's great electric tone. So to each his own.
I did play a tc12 with electric at the NYC GTG and many of the comments you've attributed to the doubler I posted earlier in the other TC thread, accept I wasn't using a doubler.
Maybe this combination just doesn't make a good pairing for electric?
