Auditioning Drummers - E-kits

[Fiset]

One of the working cover bands (30 to 40 gigs a year) I play in has been auditioning new drummers for the past few weeks. We narrowed an initial pool of 7 drummers down to the final 3. We've been holding auditions in a studio that has a house kit so the drummers don't need to bring anything other than sticks or, if they choose, can bring cymbals, snare or whatever they want. Most have brought their own cymbals but have used the house kit. One of the 3 finalists didn't bring anything and just used the house kit and house cymbals. He told us that he plays on an E-kit and no longer plays on an acoustic kit so warned us that he might be a bit loud since he's used to bashing his E-kit but being able to control the volume. We understood and while he was indeed a little on the loud side we were impressed with his playing. Once we determined he was to be one of the finalists we would ask back for a second round, we asked if he could bring his E-kit to the second round so that we could hear how things sound with his actual gear. He was happy to do so and we held those second round auditions last weekend.

The purpose of this thread is to ask about your experiences with E-kits. When we jammed with him using his E-kit, I was very "meh" about how it sounded. So much so that while I think he might be the most technically gifted of the 3 remaining drummers, our overall sound was...thin? I'm having a hard time coming up with the right adjective but to me our sound didn't have the weight and overall "oommph" that I'm used to. I especially had an issue with the high-hat and anytime he would try to do a pinched high-hat sound. It just sounded so artificial and not at all natural. My other bandmates all feel the same. So we offered the gig to one of the other guys but the whole thing got me wondering about E-kits in general and what some of you who have played with drummers using E-kits, think about them in live settings.

 

[silky smoove]

I've played with a couple drummers that have used them, and I've owned four different electronic kits myself (I'm also a drummer). What brand and model of electronic kit was he playing? In my experience, which is hardly comprehensive but is at least somewhat representative, I've found that Roland is the gold standard, Yamaha is no slouch in second place, and Alesis is a distant distant distant third place. Everything else I've tried sounds like a toy. At one point I was using a Roland TD-25KV and sending its output into a Macbook that was hosting Superior Drummer 3 and the tone was glorious. It was too much stuff to haul around all the time, so I went back to using the sounds from the Roland brain. With sufficient tweaking they can sound good in a mix, but I've never heard them sound good when listening solo.

 

[pingvuiini]

When my drummer got his E-kit I was initially glad so that he could practice at night, but that never happened (and he needed it). When it came to actually playing live with him I really missed the feel of 'moving air' that comes with acoustic drums. I suppose if there is a really beefy PA support it could be OK, but based on my limited experience I prefer the sound and feel of acoustic drums.

 

[drpepper]

Yeah, totally agree with @silky smoove that which e-drums you're talking about matters quite a bit. Then beyond that there are matters of the kit selections (in software) and other settings that the drummer is able to make and in live settings, what the person running sound does with what they're getting.

My main band's drummer plays both depending on the show/venue, and personally, I love the e-drums. I don't by any means have a golden ear, but he moved from what I'm pretty sure was a lower end Roland to something up the Yamaha ladder and I can hear the improvement. He generally uses a real hi-hat. As far as how things sound out front, I'm limited to videos and people's comments, but I'm happy with what I hear.

But I guess at the end of the day, if what you heard was what he would have been going with, then it doesn't really matter. If he did have a high end kit and had it dialed in on his end and you were running it through PA, I suppose that could have sold it short. If you were just on IEMs, that could have also not given a completely fair impression of what live foh would sound like.

 

[Fiset]

It was an Alesis E-kit. No in-ears were used during the auditions.

 

[DCErik]

We have the <$2k Alesis kit at our rehearsal spot and it's adequate-ish, I guess, with some EQ, but our first drummer's personal Roland kit with full shells actually sounded like drums and cymbals.

 

[Wasnex]

E-drums have advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest advantage is they give you lot more control over volume. However, at lower volumes you may hear the dull thud of the stick hitting the pads...especially cymbals. I would say this is most useful when the intent is for everyone to be in IEMs with no amps or sound on stage, and you want to keep the volume down. IMHO many bands should have a goal of reducing volume...but that's a discussion for another thread.

If the band wants volume, E-drums may be more of a liability rather than an advantage. There is a certain quality that is achieved from beating the hell out of a real drum set. Part of the quality is related to how your body responds to loud. Also, IME anytime something is amplified certain nuances are lost. By this I mean acoustic drums are going to sound different on stage than amplified E-drums. This may not matter for the audience if the PA is cranked so loud that the acoustic sound of the drums is not much of a factor. But it tends to be way easier to get a good sound in the house mix if your not fighting with sound bleeding off the stage.

One of the biggest disadvantages IMHO is a significant degree of touch is lost. By touch, I mean the ability to produce different sounds and shape how sound develop.


Since the E-drum guy was the best...did you ask if he was willing to play on real drums?

 

[sean_on_bass]

not a fan of E-kits for any of the music i play which has all been historically played on a real drum kit. E-kits sound terrible, look terrible, and i would absolutely never hire someone that used one outside of their practice space.

 

[Leisure Weaver]

I played in a pretty loud rock band with a drummer that used an E-kit. No IEMs, just traditional amp stacks and monitors on stage. With a drummer that does some "tuning" of the drum sounds in the module and proper FOH support, they can sound really good. The sounds are already processed, so little else is really needed. Did he lose some dynamics vs acoustic? Sure, but the drunks we were playing for didn't seem to care, and he was the fastest load-in and load-out of any drummer I've ever played with.

 

[Danny O Danny]

I think it depends a lot on the genre you play, and what the expectations are of that genre. I play in a band that does Americana/Folk-Rock and uses IEMs. I love playing with drummers that use e-drums (as long as they're quality e-drums such as Rolands) so that I can control their level in my personal monitor mix. I want to protect what hearing I have left. I also like that with an e-kit the drummer isn't setting the stage volume, which makes for a cleaner FOH mix.

 

[pepj]

Generally no. But a lot depends on the monitoring.
Other considerations are cymbals.

Not come across one that sounds good enough to work with.
We generally run kick and overhead every gig but sometimes we go full mics.
I prefer the latter and our P.A is upto that mostly. After that its down to monitoring and we wouldn't be set up for that and dont run full in ears.

To compound this..the few bands round here that have them don't sound good from a drum point of view..which reflects on overall band sound.

 

[buldog5151bass]

It depends on the e kit. I would use a good one on a rock gig, but not a jazz kit (the nuances aren't there).

 

[yodedude2]

i played several times with a drummer who played the top-of-the-line roland kit at the time. i loved playing those gigs with him. sounded great, didn't trigger my tinnitus, and he knew the kit well; he would play different drum "kits" for different songs. that really helped when playing diverse sets, e.g. it came in handy when covering santana tunes where he would provide some latin-style percussion sounds. this band played mostly vintage rock, some old pop and country songs thrown in as well.

so ... it all depends. albeit if you must have ear-shattering cymbals, bowel-thumping toms, or subtle brushwork, there is no substitute i know of for an acoustic kit.

 

[Altitude]

I have strong feelings about this and they do tend to upset drummers. Sorry in advance.

First - electronic drums have come a long way in the last 5-7 years, especially the cymbal sounds and how the pads feel. I’m talking about those. I’m not talking about e-kits from the 2000s or the Simmons pads from the 80s we saw Neil Peart playing on the p/g tour or the ones from the Kajagoogoo video.

OK here we go.

For most of us who play in small clubs, acoustic drums kits are the scourge of good sound. Mostly they are too loud; especially the snare. They make so much volume that even if you have a FOH you can’t do much to overcome it. I appreciate drummers who can play with dynamics, believe me. But a drummer deliberately holding back 70% of his/her energy in order not to overcome the mix is not what I need on a high energy Prince tune.

Next. When we hear drums on a record, we’re hearing them captured with purpose-designed microphones in sonically superior environments, and then they add all sorts of processing in post. On the other hand, when you walk into a club, what you hear is a dude who brought his drum kit to, more or less, a garage. It very frequently sounds like ass. And again, the drums are so loud that nothing can be done in production.

You only get one sound out of an acoustic drum kit, which is the sound of ass that I mentioned above. With an e-kit you can go from a rock kit to an 808 thing to something would fit in a Bruno Mars tune, all with the turn of a dial in the seconds between tunes. What’s not to like about that?

Back to stage volume for my big finish. Club bands are almost always too loud. Usually it’s because one or both of the drummer and the guitarist rate competing for stage volume. The guitarist can turn his amp down if you can convince him to. A guy playing a drum kit cannot, unless he backs off his attack a lot which affects feel. With an e-kit and everyone else running no stage amps (a key requirement I haven’t mentioned until now), you have complete control over volume. A huge advantage.

I get that drummers don’t like the way the e-drums feel. I also don’t like not having an amp 18 inches behind me that I can feel, and it took me a minute to get where IEMs didn’t seem weird. I made the transition because it was what I had to do in order deliver a better quality product to the audience. Drummers can do it too.

As goes the sound - I’m not suggesting people hit the studio with their e-kits. I am saying that however bad you think e-kits sound, they sound better than unaffected stage volume from an acoustic kit in a garage-sized room with hard surfaces everywhere.

Disclaimer: I am not talking about jazz. In that music everything is acoustic or is trying hard to sound like it is (like the Roland JC120 guitar sound). Everything can be acoustic in those situations.

OK, come at me, yo.

 

[Low Main]

I don't like e-kits in general, and the more they look like Tinkertoy play structures the less I like them.

But e-drums are getting to be like some religions: the more money you're willing to spend, the closer you get to heaven.

There are some nice e-kits that look like real drums and sound good, if you want to make the investment.

I like e-hand drums like the ones Roland makes. There's a place in my world for those things.

For anyone who cares to go deeper on the topic, Chris Cutler has been thinking about this stuff for a while.

Here's a link:

kit

 

[Core Creek]

Pro drummer here. I studied drums and it was my man instrument for 30+ years…

At my level, electronic drums are toys. I’ve owned a few and played around with them, but imagine having to play through a midi bass all night long. Drums are exceptionally dynamic and no e-kit is on par. I’ve tried top of the line DW e-drums and they still don’t come close.

So maybe at your level that’s not an issue. But as a drummer, e-drums are stifling and I’d lose about half of my feel right off the bat. A good drummer knows how to control dynamics and I’d be Leary of anyone who only plays e-kits.

 

[Pocket Dave]

For top 40, a GOOD e-kit should be able to get you somewhere significantly above MEH - in fact it might actually get you closer to your intended sound.

Alesis, OTOH, wouldn't fit that definition in my book.

 

[erratick]

It was an Alesis E-kit. No in-ears were used during the auditions.

Yeah- so that's a possible avenue for thin-ness. I find they need a ton of EQ (and maybe a tube preamp for some distortion) to sound good through a PA. In ears can help. But Alesis kits are better off midi triggering a laptop with battery or superior drummer or something else providing the sound for top tier sound. It's kind of like having mediocre drum machine sounds.

A good modern e-kit can sound phenomenal. And consistent. In some ways, it's easier and cheaper than getting a phenomenal drum kit at the right volume for most gigs.

I used to drum acoustic kits quite a bit, have used drum machines, have used e-kits. While I still like acoustic drums and cymbals, e-kits can be pro level.

 

[Texan]

Which e-kit is critical.

We started out with an Alesis Strike, sounded good, but the sensitivity was not there, realized this after playing Kick Start my Heart. We went and bought a Roland VAD716 and it’s been amazing. An estimated 70 shows with it and other drummers in the crowd are amazed by it.

 

[Low Main]

acoustic drums kits are the scourge of good sound. Mostly they are too loud; especially the snare.

I appreciate what altitude said in his post, which went up while I was writing mine.

When I got back into drums a few years ago, I practiced at a low volume level out of necessity. I also had a small kit (16" kick).

Using maple jazz sticks helped the cause. I also found that higher quality drums were much more controllable.

I brought in some Gretsch USA drums for repairs and when I had them up and running, the amount of refinement and control in the sound was remarkable. No tape or gels needed to tame overtones, etc. You could get a good sound at almost any volume level.

I've seen great drummers sometimes get a bit lost in a stage mix because they were playing with supreme control.
There are clips of Steve Gadd dealing with this.

As the old saying goes, it's better to be asked to turn up than to turn down.