Auditioning Drummers - E-kits

[pepj]

Acoustic kits all day for me. I don't know what type of drummer on acoustic kits hit some of the problems listed above but its simple, don't use those guys.
There is no reason why a well tuned kit doesn't sound really good if the guy knows what he is doing.
That same guy could probably make sense of a good e kit...but around here, you do not see them. Tbf, most bands don't carry the P.A for them either.

 

[el murdoque]

Cheap e-kit: Meh.
Good e-kit: Yes, please!

I'm regularly working with a drummer that has a Roland TD-30 with custom sounds. No stage volume to speak of, no minimal volume for the band. We can play small places and the venue can decide how loud we are. This has opened a lot of doors for us. I don't miss out on sound quality, this thing sounds decent, provided the sound system it runs through is adequate. FOH people usually start out frowning on the kit, but fall in love during sound check.

E-Kits, even the good ones, are not capable of doing 100% of what you can milk from an acoustic kit, but they are improving by the minute.
If a drummer is willing to keep up with the development and stay on top of things, this can be a win for the band. It's a costly hobby, though.
You can buy a used snare, store it for 10 years and sell it for a decent price. If you buy an e-kit component and store it for 10 years, it's most likely worthless junk.

 

[Krakmann]

Salud!

As audience, I still haven't heard an e-kit I like.

I played with a drummer with a high-end Roland kit and it didn't impress me, but the worst part was the dude needed the big kit (acoustic kit-size), a computer and a rack... just to sound meh. Also, he was anal about the kit. In his last show, he shouted to the sound guy for putting his iPad on the bassdrum, and to me because I leaned the ride stand so I could access my tiny spot onstage. He was fired the next day.

I understand acoustic drums can be an scourge, but... they are the muscle of music. I find it difficult to like e-kits.

 

[Core Creek]

Most E-Kit onboard sounds are pretty meh to horrible, unless you get up to the higher end Roland, EFnote, Zildjian etc @ 5k+
If you have a good PC/laptop,I would recommend using Superior Drummer to run it through.

Owned an for a week a little over a year ago - returned it. A good drummer friend and I gave it a thorough run through and we both agreed it just wasn’t good enough.

 

[Core Creek]

With any instrument, you have to remember where you are playing to get the sound you want, just like a bassists bedroom tone won't work on stage. I play in one band where the drummer small kits I think 16" kick drum. Tuned properly, it gives a sound much deeper than you would think, and since it isn't as large as most sets, he can play a full range of dynamics without overpowering the band.

Yes, right tools for the job. I have a kit with an 18” kick and just used it for a School of Rock style adult choir. Dynamics were going to be an issue so I grabbed the small kit, hit the cymbals lightly, used thinner sticks…. There are ways to accomplish volume changes without having turn down a knob on an e-kit.

In that case the keyboardist (who I play bass with regularly in a loud band) asked if I was going to play louder. I told him this wasn’t the right place for that and the BL loved it.

 

[TheArchitect]

One of the working cover bands (30 to 40 gigs a year) I play in has been auditioning new drummers for the past few weeks. We narrowed an initial pool of 7 drummers down to the final 3. We've been holding auditions in a studio that has a house kit so the drummers don't need to bring anything other than sticks or, if they choose, can bring cymbals, snare or whatever they want. Most have brought their own cymbals but have used the house kit. One of the 3 finalists didn't bring anything and just used the house kit and house cymbals. He told us that he plays on an E-kit and no longer plays on an acoustic kit so warned us that he might be a bit loud since he's used to bashing his E-kit but being able to control the volume. We understood and while he was indeed a little on the loud side we were impressed with his playing. Once we determined he was to be one of the finalists we would ask back for a second round, we asked if he could bring his E-kit to the second round so that we could hear how things sound with his actual gear. He was happy to do so and we held those second round auditions last weekend.

The purpose of this thread is to ask about your experiences with E-kits. When we jammed with him using his E-kit, I was very "meh" about how it sounded. So much so that while I think he might be the most technically gifted of the 3 remaining drummers, our overall sound was...thin? I'm having a hard time coming up with the right adjective but to me our sound didn't have the weight and overall "oommph" that I'm used to. I especially had an issue with the high-hat and anytime he would try to do a pinched high-hat sound. It just sounded so artificial and not at all natural. My other bandmates all feel the same. So we offered the gig to one of the other guys but the whole thing got me wondering about E-kits in general and what some of you who have played with drummers using E-kits, think about them in live settings.

The high end kits are very good. There should not have been anything thin about them unless the amplification used was not up to par. Did the audition use your full PA? Thats the sound that would matter.

 

[Core Creek]

What I’m hearing here is:

1. Drummers are asserting that it’s more important to play with dynamics. I SO agree and appreciate that sentiment. But this is something else. Acoustic instruments - all acoustic instruments - by their nature sound different when you play them hard than when you play them soft. To play an acoustic drum kit quietly enough in a club room results in an untenable feel sacrifice. Meanwhile, electric instruments, also by their nature, can be turned up and down to deliver the same sound at different volumes. That is what is needed here.

2. You guys don’t like the way e-drums feel. I can understand that. My argument is that to make the band sound good in certain room situations, it’s a worthwhile sacrifice to be made. I’m not a drummer, so I can’t make an informed comparison between moving from acoustic drums to e-drums on the one hand and moving out my SVT 810 in favor of a set of IEMs on the other - but I can say that transition was unpalatable to me too at first. Now I’m used to it and it makes sense.

For the record I realize I’m waging an unwinnable argument against a lot of preference and habit.

Arguing going from an amp to IEMs is similar ignores the fact that you’re still using your fingers on strings to create an analog sound. It’s not an equal comparaison.

A equal comparison would be playing a MIDI guitar like the 80’s Casio and having that sound converted into digital data and then triggering a sound from a module. The fact that the tech ended in the 80’s for guitars says a lot about how guitarists felt about it. the only reason I think it continued on drums is because popular music used more modern sounds.

I can understand triggering a few sounds from a module (our drummer does it). But again, electronic drums are not close enough to the real thing for anyone who has spent decades working on their craft.

 

[Core Creek]

i guess if they were acceptable and wise to use for professionals, then why do literally all the remotely popular bands in my area not use them? how come my favorite international acts don't use them? how come even my local hobbyists don't use them? why have i played countless gigs in a variety of styles and the drummer never used them? are they all stupid?

If a drummer is known to use an e-kit they are looked at as amateur by most musicians. it will limit their potential to get hired IMO.

Cost is a major issue. Yes, the top of the line Roland and now DW kits are impressive for what they are. Plus the DW kit can easily convert to an acoustic kit so it’s versatile. But it’s also $9000. The tech does trickle down to different price points but there’s a lot that’s stripped away on a $1400 e-kit - and even $1400 is a lot if you’re playing $75 bar gigs.

 

[Core Creek]

There’s also the issue of individuality. We as bassists sit here and debate amps, watts, ohms, strings, pics, effects…. All to get a sound we call our own. E drums all pretty much sound the same.

I have been asked numerous times how come my kits sound so good. It’s years and years of the same experimentation we use on bass - different heads, tunings, drum sizes, drum materials, cymbals sizes and materials, brands…. It’s funny to me how bassists and guitarists are so hung up on their “tone” or unique sound and yet assume drummers could care less. I work hard to make my drums sound good and they sound like…. Me. I’d take that any day of the week over the generic “Maple Kit” pre-loaded in a Roland module.

Again, I get that some, or even many drummers don’t care. But I don’t operate at that level. At every gig where I meet a new drummer we talk gear, drums, cymbals, etc - getting a sound that’s ours is important to us. And E-drums really are the antithesis to that.

 

[Altitude]

Cost is a major issue. Yes, the top of the line Roland and now DW kits are impressive for what they are. Plus the DW kit can easily convert to an acoustic kit so it’s versatile. But it’s also $9000. The tech does trickle down to different price points but there’s a lot that’s stripped away on a $1400 e-kit - and even $1400 is a lot if you’re playing $75 bar gigs.

How much is a pro quality acoustic drum kit these days? Asking sincerely.

 

[Core Creek]

How much is a pro quality acoustic drum kit these days? Asking sincerely.

The used market is a treasure trove. A few years ago I picked up a used set of Rockstar drums for $425 and they sound better than kits I’ve paid $1000 for. I had a set of PDP drums that cost about $500 that I sold after A/Bing them. A lot had to do with drum heads and knowing how to tune. But the depth of the drum is important too. And like bass, after you get comfortable with certain sizes and heads it just gets easier to dial in a tone that works.

 

[cabronazo_pr]

E-kits work well depending on the situation. They’re not ideal, but practical. In my experience, their biggest advantage has been volume control, especially in small venues. The ability to switch sounds quickly has been very useful as well. However, all of that comes with a tradeoff. I’ve heard the same complaint from many drummers — they feel like toys. Some drummers don’t mind them, while others absolutely hate them, and that’s understandable. Unfortunately, they’re here to stay. Many venues now have decibel meters, and ask bands to bring an e-kit instead of an acoustic set to keep the noise down. They’re a good tool to have in less-than-ideal situations.

 

[pbass2]

Looks wise, I'm a fan of the earlier Simmons hex pads that screams retro-futuristic. Unfortunately no one makes them anymore, not even Simmons themselves.

I played in a band in the late 80's where the drummer bought a full Simmons kit. And as one does played everything from occasionally decent venues to mostly bars and dives with crap PA/monitoring on multi-band bills. Good times trying to set that kit up in 10 minutes and with just a line check at best. I remember quite a few gigs where all I could hear was "clickity clack" coming off the sticks on the pads.

 

[Wasnex]

For the record, I don't have any problem with bands that play super loud as long as they work in venues that actually want them to play super loud. I'm well past the age where I want to hear it.

Drums have a huge dynamic range, and the feel and tactile feedback changes significantly with the drummer’s playing.

I agree with this. But IME many drummers do not have a huge dynamic range. They pretty much beat the hell out of the set non-stop. Also many drummers (as well as other musicians) tend to get louder and louder as the gig progresses. Many drummers refuse to accept or admit that it's even possible to play at low volume. But, IME a good drummer can play surprisingly quietly. However doing it well requires dedicated practice and choosing the right equipment.

all acoustic instruments - by their nature sound different when you play them hard than when you play them soft. To play an acoustic drum kit quietly enough in a club room results in an untenable feel sacrifice.

I agree with pretty much all of your post except the claim that playing acoustic drums softly results in an untenable sacrifice. If keeping the volume down suits the patrons need, figuring out how to do it as well as possible is likely to get you more work.

The tone and dynamic envelope of a drum hit does change with how hard you strike it. However, this can be offset to some degree by selecting appropriate sticks, cymbals, drums, and drum heads, and then tuning the set for the intended purpose. Will it ever sound like a drum set played at the top of it's dynamic range, no but IMHO the result can be entirely fine.

Also, let's not assume all bashers have a kit that sounds great. Many of them have absolutely horrible tone because they never change their heads and won't or can't tune their set. Beating the hell of out of an awful sounding drum set still triggers the bodies automatic response to loud noise. If this is what you are after, you get the desired result even though it sounds awful.

My feeling is pro musicians are more like craftsman or service providers than artists. As a result they should aspire to providing value to their patron. If the club owner wants the band to play loud, then by all means play loud. However, my impression is a vast majority of patrons would prefer live music to be a bit quieter. A common response from musicians is to state that live music has to be loud, which IMHO is BS. Live music can definitely be dialed back to whatever level suits the situation. IME, a band that figures out how to play at a lower volume is likely to get more work; not less.

I will concede that not everyone who hears a band at a low volume will think it sounds great. Likewise not everyone who hears a band playing loud will think it sounds great. You can't make everyone happy. IMHO, the trick is to play at the volume that best meets the needs of the setting.

Of course there is also the rare musician who is an actual artists who can pretty much do whatever they want live because they have a huge adoring following. If this is you, do whatever you want as long as you can get away with it.

 

[Altitude]

Also, let's not assume all bashers have a kit that sounds great. Many of them have absolutely horrible tone because they never change their heads and won't or can't tune their set. Beating the hell of out of an awful sounding drum set still triggers the bodies automatic response to loud noise. If this is what you are after, you get the desired result even though it sounds awful.

Part of my argument that’s been left behind a little is that the rooms most of us play in don’t care how good the drum kit is. They all end up sounding the same because the rooms are acoustically terrible. That is actually an issue for basses too, and for every instrument, but at least with the others we can moderate volume, add effects, and otherwise positively affect the output. This is within reason. I don’t assert that four Home Depot buckets and a wooden spoon would sound the same as a DW Collector series or something.

Something I’ve not mentioned yet is that increasingly in modern music the drums do not sound like a traditional drum kit. When I was in college playing in cover bands on 6th Street in Austin, you could play an acoustic kit across all three sets and the music would sound more or less like the audience heard it on the radio. These days it’s becoming more necessary for drummers to emulate non-traditional voices in order to play covers. If you can’t do that in your band, another band can.

 

[Fiset]

If a drummer is known to use an e-kit they are looked at as amateur by most musicians. it will limit their potential to get hired IMO.

Definitely the case in my situation. We would have offered the gig to the guy if he played an acoustic kit.

 

[Fiset]

The high end kits are very good. There should not have been anything thin about them unless the amplification used was not up to par. Did the audition use your full PA? Thats the sound that would matter.

Yep, we used the full PA and one of our singers (we have two lead vocalists) not only owns the studio where we rehearse, he's also a sound guy. But we all (my bandmates) know our way around live sound. Based on what I've read in this thread, it sounds like the Alesis E-kit the drummer used was decent but not high end.

 

[pcake]

One of the working cover bands (30 to 40 gigs a year) I play in has been auditioning new drummers for the past few weeks. We narrowed an initial pool of 7 drummers down to the final 3. We've been holding auditions in a studio that has a house kit so the drummers don't need to bring anything other than sticks or, if they choose, can bring cymbals, snare or whatever they want. Most have brought their own cymbals but have used the house kit. One of the 3 finalists didn't bring anything and just used the house kit and house cymbals. He told us that he plays on an E-kit and no longer plays on an acoustic kit so warned us that he might be a bit loud since he's used to bashing his E-kit but being able to control the volume. We understood and while he was indeed a little on the loud side we were impressed with his playing. Once we determined he was to be one of the finalists we would ask back for a second round, we asked if he could bring his E-kit to the second round so that we could hear how things sound with his actual gear. He was happy to do so and we held those second round auditions last weekend.

The purpose of this thread is to ask about your experiences with E-kits. When we jammed with him using his E-kit, I was very "meh" about how it sounded. So much so that while I think he might be the most technically gifted of the 3 remaining drummers, our overall sound was...thin? I'm having a hard time coming up with the right adjective but to me our sound didn't have the weight and overall "oommph" that I'm used to. I especially had an issue with the high-hat and anytime he would try to do a pinched high-hat sound. It just sounded so artificial and not at all natural. My other bandmates all feel the same. So we offered the gig to one of the other guys but the whole thing got me wondering about E-kits in general and what some of you who have played with drummers using E-kits, think about them in live settings.

i played edrums for a while, and i can tell you that which module, which amplification, whether the drums and cymbals have multiple zones all matter a lot if you're looking for enough variety of sounds and realistic sounds. also some pads have more bounce, some are firmer, and that can't matter, too. so if i was going to audition drummers, i'd require they bring their gear - which isn't a bad idea anyway. some drummers don't have a way to transport a kit, so finding out at the gate is a good idea, which even acoustic drummers can have incomplete kits or just the wrong kits for your sound.

 

[EricOnTheBass]

I agree with this. But IME many drummers do not have a huge dynamic range. They pretty much beat the hell out of the set non-stop. Also many drummers (as well as other musicians) tend to get louder and louder as the gig progresses. Many drummers refuse to accept or admit that it's even possible to play at low volume. But, IME a good drummer can play surprisingly quietly. However doing it well requires dedicated practice and choosing the right equipment.

I agree with you there. There is a notable lack of musicianship in the drumming community, and I've watched and played with lots of drummers who play as loud as possible for every song. Playing drums quietly is rather difficult, and is the sign of a real pro.

 

[dbflats]

I've noticed a fair number of drummers don't drive or have lost their license and need a lift from the bass player