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Auditioning Drummers - E-kits
- Thread starter Fiset
- Start date
Totally agree on the part about being an amateur is far off the mark.
I started gigging as a singing drummer. If I were to ever go back I'd use an E-kit. I've owned a couple and like anything else there are good and bad ones. And if I got in a band with an E-kit that would be my choice. When do the guitarist or bassist ever ask the drummers about their gear and how it sounds? Just saying no to them universally seems very shortsighted.
Agree on universal dismissal...e-kits are a different instrument altogether and might have a place in certain situations. but in my preferred music, straight ahead jazz, they have no place. I can think of some other genres where that would be equally true. they are great for situations where you need a sound that you can't get on an acoustic drumkit easily, ie 808's or samples. I think we should all agree that there are absolutely gigs that they are not welcome and would be a detriment rather than an advantage. So yes, saying no in all situations would be short sighted but so would saying yes.
Also, i absolutely chat with my drummers about their gear, influences, etc. Even though i am primarily a bassist i am extremely interested in the other instruments in the band and love to talk about it with folks who have mastered their craft over a lifetime. Aren't you?
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Yes I am.
I was only thinking that I've seldom ever heard of drummers telling other band members they need to use this instrument over another. But that is my experience.
Kinda true, but e-kit or acoustic kit... in jazz that's as sonically and visually fundamental as playing DB or BG, I'd say more fundamental than DB or EUB. A drummer usually won't tell you which to bring, but a BL might, or it might just be expected that you understand the gig well enough to know which works.
That's on par with what some bassists here spend on BOOtique gear. BTW, I have a good Roland V-kit and it sounds excellent through headphones, in-ears, and a GOOD sound system. Yes, feel is different from an acoustic kit, but as some pointed out with using IEMs, a lot of what we spout on TB is based more on habit.
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E-kits all the way. They often have a smaller footprint, and volume control is otherwise often a challenge.
That they can sound different from acoustic kits is no more a revelation than acknowledging that different guitars, amps, and effects units sound different, and that the same gear sounds different in the hands of different players. E-kit sounds can be changed/adjusted/fine-tuned, just as can be amps and effects units. You probably did the best drummer a disservice by not giving him a chance to tweak his sounds to your preferences.
That they can sound different from acoustic kits is no more a revelation than acknowledging that different guitars, amps, and effects units sound different, and that the same gear sounds different in the hands of different players. E-kit sounds can be changed/adjusted/fine-tuned, just as can be amps and effects units. You probably did the best drummer a disservice by not giving him a chance to tweak his sounds to your preferences.
You said your band's concern about his e-drums was that they sounded "thin" compared to an acoustic kit, particularly the cymbals.
I would suggest this is mostly due to your hearing them in a practice session in very close proximity to the drums, where it's possible to hear every nuance in full frequency and fully wide aural ambiance. This is where a genuine acoustic kit will always win.
Keep in mind, that advantage all but disappears, and even reverses itself, when you mic up the acoustic kit and send it to the board and out to the PA.
I speak from experience. I have decades of mixing live sound and I've also been playing Roland and Pintech e-drum kits since 2005.
That said, due to the complex acoustic nature of cymbals, the technology to accurately replicate them electronically is still not where it needs to be. But, for any band playing live shows, 99.9% of your audience will hear the same rhing, regardless if it's digital or acoustic.
I would suggest this is mostly due to your hearing them in a practice session in very close proximity to the drums, where it's possible to hear every nuance in full frequency and fully wide aural ambiance. This is where a genuine acoustic kit will always win.
Keep in mind, that advantage all but disappears, and even reverses itself, when you mic up the acoustic kit and send it to the board and out to the PA.
I speak from experience. I have decades of mixing live sound and I've also been playing Roland and Pintech e-drum kits since 2005.
That said, due to the complex acoustic nature of cymbals, the technology to accurately replicate them electronically is still not where it needs to be. But, for any band playing live shows, 99.9% of your audience will hear the same rhing, regardless if it's digital or acoustic.
This thread made me go back and revisit a post and video I shared a few years ago. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that our drummer had what I thought was a low-end Roland before upgrading to a higher-tier Yamaha kit, but I was misremembering...the first e-kit was actually an lower level Alesis (not sure of the depth of their line but definitely not top of the line).
The original post was written the day after our first gig use. Reading it now, almost four years later, I can see I was a bit overly enthusiastic immediately after. With some distance, I can be more critical (especially of the hi-hat) but in an overall sense, find more positives than negatives, and think of how much context matters. In the context of this particular video (a smaller restaurant/bar gig, maybe 50 engaged people), it still strikes me as perfectly acceptable. And I think that’s the crux of most disagreements in these threads...what’s acceptable to one person may not be to another, and here a lot seems to be that decision can be made in theory instead of actual practice and still held with conviction. Context...people were there to eat, drink, dance, and hear a band play familiar tunes. They did that. I even got out front for a few songs and listen. Even now, with some hindsight and considering some of the comments here, I just have a hard time believing that even this lower-end Alesis kit (while awful to some musicians and inarguably looking like a toy) detracted or was even particularly noticeable to most of the people in the room...the reason for being there.
Used in the right place, at the right time, for the right purpose, these kits can absolutely get the job done. Higher-end models, no question IMO. I do think it's important at any level to not just plug in and go...some care and attention to selecting sounds in the drums' programming and EQing in the PA are important.
The hi-hat isn’t going to win any awards (no one was thrilled with that) and I've already taken a beating on the singer battling IEM issues and other things people find distracting in the video, but just sound-in-the-room and with the gauge being a cell phone, I still think it holds up well enough overall...and in context.
The original post was written the day after our first gig use. Reading it now, almost four years later, I can see I was a bit overly enthusiastic immediately after. With some distance, I can be more critical (especially of the hi-hat) but in an overall sense, find more positives than negatives, and think of how much context matters. In the context of this particular video (a smaller restaurant/bar gig, maybe 50 engaged people), it still strikes me as perfectly acceptable. And I think that’s the crux of most disagreements in these threads...what’s acceptable to one person may not be to another, and here a lot seems to be that decision can be made in theory instead of actual practice and still held with conviction. Context...people were there to eat, drink, dance, and hear a band play familiar tunes. They did that. I even got out front for a few songs and listen. Even now, with some hindsight and considering some of the comments here, I just have a hard time believing that even this lower-end Alesis kit (while awful to some musicians and inarguably looking like a toy) detracted or was even particularly noticeable to most of the people in the room...the reason for being there.
Used in the right place, at the right time, for the right purpose, these kits can absolutely get the job done. Higher-end models, no question IMO. I do think it's important at any level to not just plug in and go...some care and attention to selecting sounds in the drums' programming and EQing in the PA are important.
The hi-hat isn’t going to win any awards (no one was thrilled with that) and I've already taken a beating on the singer battling IEM issues and other things people find distracting in the video, but just sound-in-the-room and with the gauge being a cell phone, I still think it holds up well enough overall...and in context.
Our drummer has used both, but strongly prefers his acoustic kit. Another drummer in our area plays a high quality e-drum kit and he sounds amazing. In talking with him, he noted that he had to learn to play a bit differently to get the best from his e-drums as they simply don’t feel and respond like acoustic drums - He describes it as learning a totally different instrument. I’m no drummer, but listening to him play tells me he’s on to something…
Ime, a phone video is a very good tell of the mix on the day and is likely the most popular video that people would post, certainly on SMS. Its just so easy and point and shoot and if you are getting phone 'mixes' wrong...the positioning of the phone is the most popular reason but then thats also pretty obvious..or your mix is just plain wrong.
Its a simple thing to fix or it can be hard..depends on the guy controlling the band mix. But unless its a really poor room you'll probably only need one or corrections per set..at most.
Its a simple thing to fix or it can be hard..depends on the guy controlling the band mix. But unless its a really poor room you'll probably only need one or corrections per set..at most.
It’s less a matter of what the player “prefers” and more a matter of what makes the band sound better to the audience. If those two things line up, great. If they don’t, the quality of the product is what delivers more gigs and higher fees.
I “prefer” the way an 8x10 feels when it thumps air onto my back all night long. But the band sounds better when I leave the cabinet home and bring the IEMs. Can’t say I loved the transition but I can say that I made it.
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I was at a corporate event at the Field Museum in Chicago last night. There was a live band in the huge central room there, where every surface is stone. Acoustic drum kit and the band sounded like an undefined wash of noise. Often I couldn’t even tell what song they were playing.
I left after 45 minutes because I had to shout directly into people’s ears to have a conversation. I thought of this thread and how much better it would have been if the band had been able to turn down to a lower volume than the baseline level established by the drum kit.
This band was apparently good enough to land a gig at a party for one of the main companies in the enterprise software industry, so presumably the drummer was capable of dynamics. I suppose he may have been playing his preferred kit.
I left after 45 minutes because I had to shout directly into people’s ears to have a conversation. I thought of this thread and how much better it would have been if the band had been able to turn down to a lower volume than the baseline level established by the drum kit.
This band was apparently good enough to land a gig at a party for one of the main companies in the enterprise software industry, so presumably the drummer was capable of dynamics. I suppose he may have been playing his preferred kit.
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I've played so many ballrooms where the tray-ceilings alone were enough to send the sound swirling into a wash. Almost all the drummers I know have both electric and acoustic kits and know how to get the best out of both.
You make a good point about electric bass and acoustic bass being two very different instruments.
A much better comparison: electronic and acoustic keyboards. Many if not most keyboard players were reluctant to adapt to electronic keys early on for many of the reasons drummers resist adapting to e-drums. But, of course, electronic keyboards are now the standard outside classical and (some) jazz.
That said, in my experience in bands, the better the drummer, the more accepting of the idea of making the change.
And, again in my experience, it's been the unapologetic bashers who vociferously dismissed the idea of using e-drums. Playing at reasonable volume is not what they signed up for. Asking those drummers to rein it in is like asking metal guitarists not to chug through 100-watt half stacks.
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I miss the percussive energy.
E kits don't convey that at all.
Apart from that, they're pretty good
E kits don't convey that at all.
Apart from that, they're pretty good
Drummer in my band has 2 or 3 full Roland kits, they all sound great. He asked me about 2 years ago if I thought anyone would mind if he started playing an e Kit, cause he wanted to completely move over and get rid of most his acoustic drums. I told him he never tells me how to play bass, so I'm never going to tell him how to play drums. He's easily the best drummer I've played with.
Like others have said with a beefy PA, good sub. etc. you can make them sound pretty great. He has his programs for each song really dialed in.
As an added bonus he has his load-in and load-out system down pat now, so that's a breeze.
Like others have said with a beefy PA, good sub. etc. you can make them sound pretty great. He has his programs for each song really dialed in.
As an added bonus he has his load-in and load-out system down pat now, so that's a breeze.
Yeah, as someone who plays drums, this basically mirrors my thoughts. An e-kit is akin to a MIDI guitar, not an 'electric' version of an acoustic instrument.
Even the best e-kits tend to have a 'machine-gunning' effect where the sample is audibly cut-off and re-triggered (basically sounds like a machine gun, hence the name). This is super obvious on a single or double stroke roll on the snare.
Demos of even $3k+ e-kits sound terrible to me so I'm not sure how people can't tell (or care) about the difference. I get if you're playing music where every hit is full velocity with no ghost notes or dynamics, then it probably suffices for that.
Likewise, if you have a drummer that can't tame their volume to the room, I can see the benefit - I get it, playing softly on the drums takes more work than bashing. Steve Gadd is a wonderful example of being able to bring intensity at whisper quiet volumes but very few drummers are at that level.
Still, I'd rather play with tea towels over the drums and be miked up than use an e-kit - this can be played at un-amplified acoustic guitar volumes if you have thin cymbals and a light touch. Jazz guys play in piano trios with fully open heads and no muffling, with patrons seated a few meters away, no-one seems to complain about volume at these gigs, so it can be done.
