Auditioning Drummers - E-kits

[Aussie Player]

I hate them. They sound like hitting cardboard boxes to me. I have always walked away from auditions where an e-kit is being used.
There is a reason that fad died very quickly in the early 80's. They don't sound like drums.

 

[pklima]

I'll add some thoughts. Around here e-kits are very popular with wedding bands which need to control volume. If you don't need to be quiet but need 808s etc, an acoustic kit and a sample pad is probably the best compromise.

I am working with a drummer who owns an e-kit, and I also got a small portable kit (4" deep kick, snare, one cymbal, tiny hi-hat) that's a different compromise. She uses the e-kit for home practice. We definitely use the mini-kit over the e-kit for all gigs, but, well, we do acoustic stuff. E-kit wouldn't fit as well visually, it's actually more to transport and set up than the acoustic mini-kit, and brushes are a pretty big deal for us.

Brush sweeps on an e-kit are... well, sampled sweeps can easily sound totally fine IMO, but triggering them and controlling their speed is a job for preprogrammed MIDI or moving your finger around on a tablet using the Sampleson stuff or something... e-kits can't really provide the necessary control though you can sorta preset some sweep length parameters and trigger them with one pad for slow and one for faster or more accented, well, it's a totally different playing approach. I tried with a guy with a TrapKAT and we got it to sound OK but the technique and control are nothing like the real thing. But of course all this doesn't matter to most bands.

 

[bherman]

Some recent experience, not as a member of a band, but as an audience member. I’m just returning from a visit to the island of Bali. There was a great club that we visited three nights in a row, and all three drummers played the house kit, which is a very small e-kit. Small bar, 3 great bands (grunge, reggae, blues/rock) and in a live context, all three drummer sounded really great. Most definitely helpful that it controlled the volume in a small room , where acoustic drums would’ve been loud, but I really felt that nothing was lacking in the overall sound of the band. We members of bands are often hypersensitive to these things but as an audience member (which I rarely am) it sounded just fine.

 

[Fiset]

Okay so this was a little surreal. My other gigging project (a smaller project, 10-20 gigs a year) has a gig on the 21st and our drummer had something serious come up and can't make the gig. Our guitarist knows another drummer who agreed to sub for the gig and we met at the sub drummers rehearsal space last night to run the sets. Imagine the look on my face when I walked in and was greeted with an E-kit! But this one is a Roland kit and is one of the high end kits (drummer said it cost him about 9 grand).

Let me just say I now understand what several of you were talking about when you said the difference between low and high-end E-kits is significant. Because the kit last night sounded really good. Not as good as acoustic drums but really close. Definitely close enough for a sub gig and I would even consider it as a full time option. The cymbals on the Roland were light years better sounding than the Alesis kit from last weekend. Especially the high-hat. The pinched high-hat sounds were much better and the ride cymbal was very clear and present.

After the rehearsal I talked with the drummer at length about my experience with the Alesis and he told me it took him several trial and error setups with other E-kits before deciding on spending the big bucks for the top of the line Roland. And its also a very nice looking kit. Looks like an acoustic kit and not one of those kits that would be right at home on a Toys R Us shelf.

So its a little crazy that the E-kits have made an appearance in both my main gigging projects within the same week and I'm really glad I started this thread when I did as a lot of the input here has been very informative and helpful. I'll report back after the gig on the 21st with an update on how I feel about the Roland in a live setting but I'm quite encouraged by what I heard last night.

 

[ole Jason]

They sound fine when FOH is adequate. I don't like how they sound for quieter stages and especially if you can audibly hear the sticks hitting the pads.

 

[Guitalia]

i played several times with a drummer who played the top-of-the-line roland kit at the time. i loved playing those gigs with him. sounded great, didn't trigger my tinnitus, and he knew the kit well; he would play different drum "kits" for different songs. that really helped when playing diverse sets, e.g. it came in handy when covering santana tunes where he would provide some latin-style percussion sounds. this band played mostly vintage rock, some old pop and country songs thrown in as well.

so ... it all depends. albeit if you must have ear-shattering cymbals, bowel-thumping toms, or subtle brushwork, there is no substitute i know of for an acoustic kit.

Ear-shattering cymbals, indeed. Real cymbals might theoretically sound a bit better sometimes, but it's hard for me to tell, having lost some hearing in my left ear from being squeezed next to a drummer's ride and crash cymbals on tiny stages a few times too often.

 

[dbflats]

I've got the same kind of ears.

As a matter of fact, I can hear cymbals ringing in my ears right now and I'm just sitting in my living room watching tv!

 

[Altitude]

Most of you who feel that acoustic kits “just sound better” - they do! Realize though that you are either the drummer and sitting at the kit, or the bass player and standing right next to it. You are hearing the kit directly.

The other people in the room are not hearing the drums as much as they are hearing the mash of sound from the kit along with whatever random wash is occurring in the garage-sized room you’re in that has a hard surface on all six sides.

This is the crux of my point. I’m not contending that e-kits sound better than acoustic kits, though they do sound better than they did even a few years ago. What I’m saying is that the balance sheet of pros and cons in a small club environment usually favors e-kits. On the whole they solve more problems than they create and more bands should be using them.

 

[Bob_Ross]

When we jammed with him using his E-kit, I was very "meh" about how it sounded. So much so that while I think he might be the most technically gifted of the 3 remaining drummers, our overall sound was...thin? I'm having a hard time coming up with the right adjective but to me our sound didn't have the weight and overall "oommph" that I'm used to.

I have never *not* had that sensation when playing with an electronic drummer.

E-kits are a fabulous convenience… But a terrible substitute for an acoustic drum kit.

 

[Guitalia]

I have never *not* had that sensation when playing with an electronic drummer.

E-kits are a fabulous convenience… But a terrible substitute for an acoustic drum kit.

I suspect much or even most of the difference you're referring to is a consequence of drummers keeping the volume settings too low, thus robbing themselves of the dynamic range we're used to hearing with acoustic drums and cymbals.

The one drummer I've played with who used both acoustic and e-drums was not timid about turning the e-drums way up in his dedicated amp or the PA. He could take your head off with either set, but he played with consummate dynamic control and sounded fantastic regardless of which he was playing.

By the way, if acoustic drums are so superior, I wonder why some producers have drummers lay down their parts on acoustic drums and then replace the parts with samples. And, further, if that's on its way to becoming standard practice for at least some genres, it would seem to make sense to replicate that kind of sound at live venues.

 

[Bob_Ross]

By the way, if acoustic drums are so superior, I wonder why some producers have drummers lay down their parts on acoustic drums and then replace the parts with samples. And, further, if that's on its way to becoming standard practice for at least some genres, it would seem to make sense to replicate that kind of sound at live venues.

Because producers have rarely been interested in representing reality. They're interested in creating an illusion.
(btw, sample replacement for drums in the studio has been "standard practice" for >35 years.)

But yes, I agree that too many e-drummers have their sound system volume too low.

 

[fretter]

I play an Alesis Nitro Mesh, the cheapest there is. It sounds great on headphones but not so much when I run it through a speaker. I also can't imagine frequently dissembling and reassembling the entire kit with all of its wires. They now make wireless e-drums but I don't know anything about them. The new top-of-the-line Roland shell kit is around 10k which would be the price of a pro-level acoustic kit. High volume in bars and restaurants bothers me as well. If I were a gigging drummer, I would probably get an acoustic cocktail kit or travel kit of some sort. This could be mic'd up to get a bigger sound for rock.

 

[TheArchitect]

i guess if they were acceptable and wise to use for professionals, then why do literally all the remotely popular bands in my area not use them? how come my favorite international acts don't use them? how come even my local hobbyists don't use them? why have i played countless gigs in a variety of styles and the drummer never used them? are they all stupid?

If a drummer is known to use an e-kit they are looked at as amateur by most musicians. it will limit their potential to get hired IMO.

They are not used in most cases because the good ones are 3x the price of acoustic equivalents. As for being looked at as amateur, that's total BS.

 

[namboy]

I have played with various drummers who have had to use both acoustic and electric kits for different situations whether that was the practise room, small bar gig or larger crowd outdoor events.

And for me acoustic drums 95% of the time. Wherever possible I'd rather have acoustic drums. (I find it very wierd when the drum sounds are coming from iem or monitor instead of the actual drum kit)

But have played in venues that are glorified garages and there is nothing you can do to fix the mix but play electric drums so that the overall sound can be softer. I've seen the difference between low and high cost electric kits and unfortunately it's high end or nothing

 

[Wasnex]

The one drummer I've played with who used both acoustic and e-drums was not timid about turning the e-drums way up in his dedicated amp or the PA. He could take your head off with either set, but he played with consummate dynamic control and sounded fantastic regardless of which he was playing.

For me, the biggest benefit to E-drums is the ability to keep the volume down. If the drummers is going to bring a huge full-range amplification system and play as loud as acoustic drums, my feeling is why bother with the extra cost and hassle? I am not saying there are not other potential benefits, only that in my mind the pro/con math doesn't really work.

I also struggle to see the point of using IEMs when everyone on stage is still using a big amp and generating massive volume on stage. IME, IEMs can be used to greatly reduce stage volume and the amount of gear a band has to transport and setup.

 

[sean_on_bass]

They are not used in most cases because the good ones are 3x the price of acoustic equivalents. As for being looked at as amateur, that's total BS.

I think there is way more to it than just the price, as evidenced by many of the opinions expressed in this thread. They are controversial to say the least. Alot of people, drummers and otherwise, do not like them or want to play in a band with them. And sometimes it is an amateur move to bring an e-kit to certain situations.

Quite simply, they are rarely an acceptable substitute for real drums. It's not like if they were cheaper then everyone would play them.

 

[Guitalia]

For me, the biggest benefit to E-drums is the ability to keep the volume down. If the drummers is going to bring a huge full-range amplification system and play as loud as acoustic drums, my feeling is why bother with the extra cost and hassle? I am not saying there are not other potential benefits, only that in my mind the pro/con math doesn't really work.

I also struggle to see the point of using IEMs when everyone on stage is still using a big amp and generating massive volume on stage. IME, IEMs can be used to greatly reduce stage volume and the amount of gear a band has to transport and setup.

I read that post as implicitly acknowledging that it's probably the lack of volume that's principally what accounts for e-drums sounding lacking to you.

I'm afraid we can't have it both ways. If we want e-drums to sound good, we have to accept that it's up to drummers to have the sense to control their dynamics, just as they should with acoustic drums.

Luckily, e-drums, earbuds, and digital mixers affording personalized monitoring all currently exist. Being able to tailor your own monitor mix is the obvious solution, and is far easier to do without acoustic drums hammering away a few feet behind you.

 

[Wasnex]

it's probably the lack of volume that's principally what accounts for e-drums sounding lacking

IMHO that is part of the problem, but only part. It doesn't matter if it's E-drums or acoustic drums, keeping the volume down will change our perceptions about how the drums sound. I think it entirely possible to get a good tone at a lower volume, but below a certain volume threshold, your body will not produce the autonomic response that makes you perceive the sound as exciting. If you desire the full the experience of loud, then the only way to get that experience is to make it loud. If the goal is to keep the volume down, we need understand, accept, and deal with the fact we don't always get everything we want.

If your going to think of your self as a professional, I think it a good idea to tailor your musical presentation to the patron and the audience's needs. By this I mean strive to play at a volume that is appropriate to the situation, rather than focusing solely on what gets you off.

I'm afraid we can't have it both ways. If we want e-drums to sound good, we have to accept that it's up to drummers to have the sense to control their dynamics, just as they should with acoustic drums.

The drummer calls the shots if he/she is the group leader or in certain situations where they are free to play exactly as they want, because it has no impact on anyone else. For example a huge stage where the band is spread out and the PA is so big/powerful that the audience can't hear any of the drum's direct sound. Otherwise, drummers should use their judgement and initiative to try and adjust to the situation. We are not always in a position to accurately judge how loud we should play. So it's also necessary for the drummer to take guidance from whoever is in charge. That could mean playing louder or softer than we think is appropriate.

 

[Guitalia]

IMHO that is part of the problem, but only part. It doesn't matter if it's E-drums or acoustic drums, keeping the volume down will change our perceptions about how the drums sound. I think it entirely possible to get a good tone at a lower volume, but below a certain volume threshold, your body will not produce the autonomic response that makes you perceive the sound as exciting. If you desire the full the experience of loud, then the only way to get that experience is to make it loud. If the goal is to keep the volume down, we need understand, accept, and deal with the fact we don't always get everything we want.

If your going to think of your self as a professional, I think it a good idea to tailor your musical presentation to the patron and the audience's needs. By this I mean strive to play at a volume that is appropriate to the situation, rather than focusing solely on what gets you off.



The drummer calls the shots if he/she is the group leader or in certain situations where they are free to play exactly as they want, because it has no impact on anyone else. For example a huge stage where the band is spread out and the PA is so big/powerful that the audience can't hear any of the drum's direct sound. Otherwise, drummers should use their judgement and initiative to try and adjust to the situation. We are not always in a position to accurately judge how loud we should play. So it's also necessary for the drummer to take guidance from whoever is in charge. That could mean playing louder or softer than we think is appropriate.

I think we're in agreement on all the points you make. Making sure that the band delivers the best show possible is up to all the musicians, any one of whom can make or break the presentation.

Most of us here on Talkbass would probably agree that if a given amateur/semi-pro band has a loose cannon, it's likely to be either the lead guitarist or the drummer. Here's hoping that modelers and e-drums become less controversial topics, as the twin factors of mandated SPL limits and disappearing live venues seem to be on the way to eliminating the opportunities for local bands to continue gigging.

 

[Charley Umbria]

As a drummer for over 40 years...

A good drummer should be able to handle any rock, pop, blues, jazz, or country gig with a four-piece acoustic set, 3-5 cymbals, and no Plexiglass.

If your band's got a decent P.A. and your drummer has a good quality, well-tuned kit, you shouldn't need almost anything else.

Now, if the drummer doesn't understand dynamics or can't tune their drums, you may need an electronic kit as a workaround, but it's never going to have the impact of a real acoustic kit. The only exception might be if you're doing a full-scale arena or theater show, where the audience will be 100% hearing the P.A., and no direct acoustic sound. This rig rundown with Bryan Hitt of REO shows how he uses a high-end electronic system disguised as acoustic drums, paired with real cymbals. Having seen him play live with REO, it's pretty convincing!

Otherwise, IMHO, e-kits without full-sized drum shells and cymbals just look like toys. I love the Cars, but when they did their Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction gig with electronic drums, I almost cried.

Now get off my lawn!