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Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet
- Thread starter sleepytime
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Per Chef's comment, that makes sense. The Scout cab is a great sounding cab, but not particularly clear up top. I really like the 15/6 design as an improvement over a classic one way 115 or even 215 cab. That, IMO, is where these designs really shine to my ear (Jim Bergantino used similar design logic with his NV215, which was a sealed cab, but utilized a mid driver for better, cleaner upper mid response and a bit better dispersion across the stage), especially for those who like a bit of distortion in their tone, since the mid driver design sounds much better than a tweeter loaded cab for that usage.
Also +1 that all the executions of various 15/6 designs, while varying a bit with crossover design and especially the brand of mid driver, all had a very strong similarity in tone to my ear, which is not surprising since the vast percentage of sound (at least with the typical electric bass guitar input) comes from the stock 3015LF, which is constant across all these executions.
Chef
In Memoriam
I wouldn't say the Berg NV215 was much clearer than the Scout cab, at least to my ear.
Tried one hoping for just that, and flipped it immediately as it seemed really big and thick, with even less top end info than the horn equipped Scout cab. If you want "a big velvet hammer" it's a great choice though!
My 15/6 seemed much better than the Berg in that regard, but I flipped that pretty quickly too, coming to the conclusion that I'm just never gonna be happy without the top end extension a good horn supplies, even if I run that horn attenuated fairly low on the L-pad.
Tried one hoping for just that, and flipped it immediately as it seemed really big and thick, with even less top end info than the horn equipped Scout cab. If you want "a big velvet hammer" it's a great choice though!
My 15/6 seemed much better than the Berg in that regard, but I flipped that pretty quickly too, coming to the conclusion that I'm just never gonna be happy without the top end extension a good horn supplies, even if I run that horn attenuated fairly low on the L-pad.
I agree, if you like a tweeter loaded cab, that Berg (nor any of the 15/6 executions) would not be for you... very natural extension to the upper mids, and depending on the mid driver, into the lower treble... but not much above that. And, depends how you define 'clear'. If clear means upper treble sparkle, then I agree.
Not my thing either, but I do recommend the 15/6 boxes to those looking for a 'better 215' in a much smaller, lighter box. Adding a tweeter to the 15/6 of course extends the response up higher a bit, and would of course work quite well for a variety of playing styles, depending on your specific tone goal.
I unfortunately have not been able to afford many different cabs over the years to really give much comparison between the "better" designs and applications. My most recent were/are a home brew 212 that was not designed well but was very useful for most bar gigs. From there I have a aguilar gs112 that I replaced driver with a deltalite. I like this cab and will keep it for small needs, but it did not give me a good deep sound that "took charge" or the low end. With that I sometimes added an avatar 210 to get my LMIII to 4ohms. This worked but never made me grin at all. It will be sold very soon. The TB153 is my first 3way and my first 15". All I know is this, I now have a commanding and controlled low end and the mids and uppers are much clearer. All my notes seem to stand out more in all registers. I can't say I have noticed any additional problem with my technique, on the contrary, I think is sounds better because I do not have to "try" so hard to get all notes clear and heard which often caused improper attack and a generally sloppy behavior. I also seem to sit in the mix where I have always tried to be which is nice and low. I tried the flats and other ideas projected throughout TB and never found anything to work as advised. Generally speaking I am pretty happy except that through all this I have found out that I believe the LMIII is not for me. I think I may be one of those guys that wants a head a little more colored and not so "clean". Not sure where I will go with that, but at least I am moving very close to my destination.
How much of this is the design, or brand etc? I have no idea, thats why I read all you guys input ;O)
How much of this is the design, or brand etc? I have no idea, thats why I read all you guys input ;O)
I bet that is a real step up from those other cabs. I too have not been as impressed with the LMII and 15/6 combination as with some other cabs. The LMII/III has the low mid conrol set quite high (around 400hz), which is not optimum for a cab with the stock 3015LF driver in it (at least for those who like a bit of 150-200hz low mid meat and presence).
If you have the cash, you might one of the following:
1) GK MBFusion... nice low mid control, plenty of wump (even more than the LMII/III0, and the ability to grit it up a bit with the preamp tubes.
2) Markbass F500... louder, tighter in the deep lows and again more low mid control than the LMII/III... although still totally clean
3) Genz.... the Shuttle Max 6 or the new Steamliner 600 should be able to make a 4ohm 15/6/1 sing. The Max 6 has HUGE EQ power, and the Streamliner has the potential (they start shipping next week) to do a more 'full out all tube warmth thing' in a small, lightweight package.
All great stuff IMO, and all a bit punchier with more low mid control than the very nice LMIII... more of a 'mix and match' issue than a 'good versus bad' thing.
Enjoy that rig!
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Thinking that a player needs a certain balance of frequencies to be revealing or display some additional clarity is erroneous. More important is being able to represent the broad band of output without too many big gaps. Lower crossed 2-ways and 3-ways that have are revealing do not owe it solely to whatever tonal profile.
Most of it is due to each driver having its own passband and not having to try to do it all. It means each driver can be chosen to specialize, to be "expert" at the part it supplies. And in this case, among other things, that means decreased intermodulation distortion. Same principles are widely understood in Sound Reinforcement, where bi-amping and tri-amping are common.
Surely, following this post will be something about this design approach not being all things to all people. Well, so obvious... But the design approach is very good at what it does - just not for the reasons that many people would put forward.
Most of it is due to each driver having its own passband and not having to try to do it all. It means each driver can be chosen to specialize, to be "expert" at the part it supplies. And in this case, among other things, that means decreased intermodulation distortion. Same principles are widely understood in Sound Reinforcement, where bi-amping and tri-amping are common.
Surely, following this post will be something about this design approach not being all things to all people. Well, so obvious... But the design approach is very good at what it does - just not for the reasons that many people would put forward.
FWIW although I have owned several Epi cabs in the past, as well as EA Wizzy 12s, and my "virtual memory" comparison (complete with salt grains) with those suggests the nEarful is better defined. When I 1st got my LDS 15/6 I A/B'ed it with my Epi 210/310 (both admittedly scooped) and it was clearer. I am just an amateur hack, but my suspicion is that the dedicated mid is clearer at transducing the frequencies in it's "wheelhouse" than the larger cone in a traditional 2-way enclosure. Just my .02
I have been lurking in the fEarful threads for quite a while, attempting to understand what everyone is talking about, and while I still don't understand the technical aspects of what makes cabs sound the way the sound, I am sold on the idea of the 15/6. I have been looking for a new bass rig for a LONG time, and don't want to buy the wrong thing. I am currently playing a Hartke 15 combo (2500 model, I think) which is just fine in small rehearsal room, but in a gig, the group leader is constantly screaming "MORE BASS".... "UP!"...."BOTTOM!" and when I try to give it, the rig just poops out. And I somewhat understand all this "off-axis" talk because depending on where I'm standing in relation to my amp, I either can't hear it or it sounds terrible. So the fEarful threads have been very intriguing to me, and I've even considered building my own, but I just think that'll end up being more of a headache. So I'm certain this Avatar 156 will be a VAST improvement over my Hartke.
Here's the question: what head to go with it?
Criteria: TWO channels - two inputs because I play both bass guitar and Novation K-Station key bass, and they both have to be accessible all the time because I frequently switch between both. That's actually the only criterion.
Would the Peavey World Tour 700 work? Too much power? I read somewhere (Musicians Friend review, I think) that it needs its own power outlet or something like that. Any thoughts on this amp pairing with this cab, or other TWO CHANNEL options?
If you feel like, take a listen at Link Removed for "tone goals." It's bassically just FAT FAT BASSNESS to support the band that I'm going for.
Thanks for listening, and thanks for all the great chat that I've been spying on all this time!
Here's the question: what head to go with it?
Criteria: TWO channels - two inputs because I play both bass guitar and Novation K-Station key bass, and they both have to be accessible all the time because I frequently switch between both. That's actually the only criterion.
Would the Peavey World Tour 700 work? Too much power? I read somewhere (Musicians Friend review, I think) that it needs its own power outlet or something like that. Any thoughts on this amp pairing with this cab, or other TWO CHANNEL options?
If you feel like, take a listen at Link Removed for "tone goals." It's bassically just FAT FAT BASSNESS to support the band that I'm going for.
Thanks for listening, and thanks for all the great chat that I've been spying on all this time!
The cab can take 500 watts easily and you'll need extra power to generate big lows. Make sure you can pump at least 5 or 600 watts into it and you'll be fine. If you want 2 channels, a box like a radial Bassbone will allow that and allow you to use pretty much any head.
Does the Bassbone allow both inputs to play at the same time, or do you have to select between them each time?
IIRC you have to select, but there are other products out there as well. Worth looking rather than restricting yourself so much in terms of amp choice.
Hmm, very interesting, haven't seen that pedal before. I'll investigate.
Yeah, it is frustrating to have to restrict myself to amp choice.
Ok, this is getting off track. Thanks!
You should not be restricted at all for amp choices.
All you need is a small (tabletop/pedal/etc) mixer. Set it and forget it - anything plugged into the mixer is available at all times without switching.
Harmonic distortion is another big thing of note, in many cases. Not all cases, but, I find alex's explanation to be pretty accurate for me. I noticed my bass setup issues a lot faster with the 15/6 due to the lack of any breakup modes and lack of distortion from the low end being pushed.
When you exceed Xmax or get close to it with a conventional cabinet you get a mess of gloop (which some people really love) up in the mids that can overshadow things like messed up technique or bad bass setup.
I can't find the article Alex had on bass setup and the Big One, but it is a good read if anyone finds it.
When you exceed Xmax or get close to it with a conventional cabinet you get a mess of gloop (which some people really love) up in the mids that can overshadow things like messed up technique or bad bass setup.
I can't find the article Alex had on bass setup and the Big One, but it is a good read if anyone finds it.
tocs100
Utah Bass of Doom, Metal DJ @ leafpileradio.com
It should apply to either (but I have and have only heard the 4). My .02: do not get an 8 unless you can pepper it with 500 watts. Unless you find yourself needing an 810, you will not need 2 of these. If you have a micro head pushing 500 into 4 Ohms, I'd get the 4. If you have a head that can push 500 into 8 Ohms.......I'd still get the 4 'cause I will NEVER need 2 of these. YMMV
If my Epifani 410 UL2 is not enough, will I find that the Avatar is not enough either? I'm having a really tough time deciding between 2x8ohms or 1x4 ohms.
How much juice are you pumping into the 410? If you are putting at least 500 watts into it, then either you are very loud or perhaps scooping mids, making yourself harder to hear.
If it's not a mid-scoop issue, then the 153 is not going to make you louder than a goosed, efficient 410. FWIW if you get 2 153s, you will need 500 watts into each in order to really milk them for what they are worth.
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