Double Bass Bach Suite 1 - questions from Hillwilliam country

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks for listening, gents. Hope I'm not posting too much crap lately - the little R-09 just makes it too easy.

Brian, the edition is one I actually found online (it's legal), and it's marked "Werner Icking, Siegburg", then "Privatbibliothek Nr. 12a". It's a cello edition without many editorial markings. The thing I like about is that it's all in bass clef (no tenor), and it's more or less tabula rasa. I always like the Broder editions of Mozart piano sonatas because hte pretty much left them alone, and these scores remind me of that vibe. I'd be curious to see how your edition of the Allemande is different.

What do you think about the repeats? What's the currently accepted performance practice these days?

The one thing that listening to these recordings makes me really want to focus on is nuance in my pizz playing. As jazz bassists, we spend so much time competing with louder instruments on the bandstand in the overall mix, coming at the thing from the position of being the softest instrument of the bunch, that I personally find it difficult to play extremely soft and light in some of these solo passages. This severely limits the dynamic range and scope of the performance. This lack of technique and even orientation on my part feels like what I imagine an atrophied limb must feel like; it still works, but since it hasn't been used in ever so long, it's wobbly and kind of weak. Good thing Bach wrote a lot of great physical therapy.

 

[Treyzer]

Chris,

It sounds great. I never considered how cool and compelling it would sound pizz.... I sure was wrong

 

[Paul Warburton]

Sometimes I hate you very much, DURRL. (in a loving way, of course).
I thought of going into a tirade about how important Bach is to us bassists. More importantly, how important he is to us jazz bassists in learning how to build musical bass lines.
The "breathing" stuff is so beautiful. That is really apparent in your clips.
Your references to the legato stuff in terms of the left hand without the help of the bow, though, is what helped keep me up for a few hours last night.
Being the Red Mitchell junkie that I am, when trying some of this last night, I couldn't help thinking of Red and how he might have approached that-there legato stuff. I liked the way that you did it and tried copping you.....holding down the tone and not attacking the next one with another pizzo, but hoping I could let the one tone sing long enough to just extend into the next one. I couldn't do it as good as yerownself, so I thought how about an old Red "slider"?
(sorry, I don't talk that technical stuff too good)
In other words, rather than trying to hold the tone down with my left index finger, and coaxing the next one out without another without another pizz attack, I slid into it kind of like a little gliss, I guess. Up-slur? I did work, but not in the way that I had expected it to. What it DID do, for me, was to help the "breathing aspect" of the experience.
FWIW.
Thanks again, you *&%$@":.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Your references to the legato stuff in terms of the left hand without the help of the bow, though, is what helped keep me up for a few hours last night.
Being the Red Mitchell junkie that I am, when trying some of this last night, I couldn't help thinking of Red and how he might have approached that-there legato stuff. I liked the way that you did it and tried copping you.....holding down the tone and not attacking the next one with another pizzo, but hoping I could let the one tone sing long enough to just extend into the next one. I couldn't do it as good as yerownself, so I thought how about an old Red "slider"?
(sorry, I don't talk that technical stuff too good)
In other words, rather than trying to hold the tone down with my left index finger, and coaxing the next one out without another without another pizz attack, I slid into it kind of like a little gliss, I guess. Up-slur? I did work, but not in the way that I had expected it to. What it DID do, for me, was to help the "breathing aspect" of the experience.
FWIW.

I've tried the "Redgato" method in a few places, and so far don't have the chops to make it convincing to my ears. For me, it's all about playing the "gliss" part fast enough that it's basically inaudible, but still getting the illusion of an "attack" on the second note. I think it's doable, but I'll need a lot of systematic practice to make it work.

The whole "breathing/legato" aspect of playing the suites this way is a huge learning experience. I don't like plucking every note any more than an arco player would like bowing every note in a different direction. At the same time, the line has to speak, and if a note is legato but puts too big of a volume dip in the line, it detracts from the line even as it adds to the articulation. The concept of hammers and pulls in in pizz technique is a huge can of worms, but one that I feel obligated to not only open but make a steady diet of in the practice room. On the one hand, I love the "singing" aspect of the legato articulation that it gives to the music; on the other, it's damn hard to do convincingly and musically. Every so often I get on a kick to practice playing melodies along with singers and/or horn players on recordings to try and cop some of the melodic vibe that they're putting out. Even though some things are clearly impossible to do pizz (swells within a long tone, etc.), I think there's a lot to be learned from this kind of thing. Sometimes I record my attempts to mimic them along with the original recording them and analyze the results when I can be a bit more objective. Doing the suites this way feels like the same kind of exercise. As always, thanks for weighing in.

 

[bribass]

Brian, the edition is one I actually found online (it's legal), and it's marked "Werner Icking, Siegburg", then "Privatbibliothek Nr. 12a". It's a cello edition without many editorial markings. The thing I like about is that it's all in bass clef (no tenor), and it's more or less tabula rasa. I always like the Broder editions of Mozart piano sonatas because hte pretty much left them alone, and these scores remind me of that vibe. I'd be curious to see how your edition of the Allemande is different.

What do you think about the repeats? What's the currently accepted performance practice these days?

Doh! Turns out the version I have is in C. First note is E on the G string. It goes up to high C making it good thumb position practice. It's a transcription for Double Bass by Eduard Nanny / Transcrite pour Contrebasse et annote'e par Eduard Nanny. It came w/ piano accompanyment and published in 1923 by Alphonse Leduc & Co. in Paris.
It's an original copy from then. I've had it my files forever. Don't remember where / when I got it. Maybe when I was in Parisian flea market once.

I've been playing it arco trying the Nanny fingerings, trills, turns, mordants and dynamic markings. On the repeats I've been putting more of my own spin on it as far as dynamics and nuance.

Bri

 

[LouisF]

I've posted these on the other Bach suites thread, but they may apply here as well - very interesting discussions about interpretation, phrasing etc - even if (!) from a cellist!

http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/bylsma.htm
http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/rncm2001.htm

http://www.bylsmafencing.com/ (available in the US at Lemur Music)

Louis

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks for posting that! I've only read the first article so far, but it has some nice gems in it:

TJ: You discuss the use of vibrato in your book, referring somewhat sarcastically to the "constant vibrato cult." I believe that most great artists are very conscious of their vibrato, and make sure that they don't lapse into "auto-pilot" with it. They strive for an "infinite variety" in their vibrato, as Casals described it. So who are the cult members?

AB: Most conductors belong, who then recruit their otherwise very fine orchestral musicians. The conductors want their orchestra to sound big and lush, so they ask the players to continuously vibrate. When I see this, it looks like the musicians are all making love to themselves.

Another problem with constant vibrato is that you never distinguish between consonances and dissonances. Dissonances are wonderfully expressive moments and deserve a little emphasis. Don't get me wrong, I love vibrato, and I use it all the time, but it shouldn't be applied continuously. It makes everything sound the same.

*................*................*

TJ: Getting back to Baroque music, though this may apply to music of other periods too, how do you bring out dissonances?

AB: A dissonance, like a suspension, should usually be louder than the consonances around it, since dissonances are more interesting to the ear. This can be done with a little vibrato or with bow technique. Listeners will more or less fill out the consonance for themselves, because they expect them, which is why you barely have to touch a consonance after a dissonance. But a dissonance yearns be brought out clearly. They are wonderful moments of tension.

*................*................*

TJ: Do you always play the repeats when you perform the Bach Suites? Janos Starker would, for example, only repeat the first half if the second half was twice as long.

AB: I agree. My first priority is to not bore my audience. If I sense that the audience is getting restless, I will sometimes skip a repeat. I am not there for my pleasure, I am there for the crowd’s pleasure. After all, they are paying to listen to me. If they don’t enjoy themselves, they may not come back.

TJ: I find this surprising. My impression is that your first priority is your search for a deeper understanding of the music. Are you really more of a crowd-pleaser?

AB: No. But my quest for understanding the music is my business. Most people come to hear me for entertainment, and because they may yearn for a richer understanding of Bach in their own way.

Good stuff.

 

[LouisF]

Thanks.

Louis

 

[David Kaczorowski]

You don't have to play lots of slurs and left hand articulations to make something legato. Bach didn't write any slurs into the music. To me, making the line "breathe" is coloring/shading certain notes to do things like highlight dissonances, or pick-ups, bass notes, or counter-melodies; all the things that make the character of the line come alive.

I've always loved the first suite and this thread got me working on the minuets. I'm playing them at pitch, arco. But the first minuet I play mostly detache, a couple slurs or hooked bowings in certain spots, though it's still legato. That first minuet is so happy and spright, I think I'm able to bring that out more by playing it that way. By contrast, the slower, dark, second minuet sounds better with lots of slurs.

Also, if you play the repeats, the repeat is usually played the same way as the first time through.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Be careful not to rush the 8th notes in a few spots. Be expressive and make the lines breathe. I'd forget about hammers and pulls, at least for now. Articulate every note, and as you internalize it those spots will be evident to you in how YOU hear it.

I've been working on this, the Allemande, and the Courante, and there's a lot of truth in what you say. I think I'll always play it with some hammers and pulls, but practicing it without any at first really accentuates which ones the music really seems to need to breathe right and which ones are just ornamental. Likewise with the two finger stuff - as with most of the jazz lines I play, the slower stuff sounds better with the meatier index only method. The faster 16th note passages, OTOH, can handle much more alternation without sticking out - especially on the Courante. Thanks for the tips!

You don't have to play lots of slurs and left hand articulations to make something legato. Bach didn't write any slurs into the music. To me, making the line "breathe" is coloring/shading certain notes to do things like highlight dissonances, or pick-ups, bass notes, or counter-melodies; all the things that make the character of the line come alive.

Agreed. Hearing the multiple voice textures really opens things up, and as Blysma noted, the dissonances are where it's at in terms of tension and release. It's also a great exercise in articulation to try to feel the hierarchical relationship of the notes in a line. If you accentuate everything more or less evenly, the music just lays there. If you can feel which ones give the line motion and momentum and give them a little extra (or back off on the rest), the same line really starts to sing.

I've always loved the first suite and this thread got me working on the minuets.

This really made my day.

I'm playing them at pitch, arco.

You mean reading the pitches as if they were written for bass, or playing them at cello pitch?

 

[LouisF]

Chris - I posted this earlier today in the Orch Technique section (the discussion is mostly over editions etc there). I thought I'd put it here too - if that's not being a bore.

Louis

"I've been hesitating about responding, but have decided to dive in here. I'm not a professional bassist, I'm probably not even a very good bassist, but, I'm a pretty good director (see below) and have been involved in several performance workshops for musicians as a clinician (including Barry Green's bass camp etc), and, without wanting to sound like a blowhard, I think I have some advice to give.

Bach is a lot like Shakespeare - almost all the editions (including the First Folio, the "equivalent" of the AM Magdalena book) are suspect and/or corrupt in one way or the other. In terms of analysis & study, one should probably (as I do in rehearsal) have as many editions as possible and work out a performance "edition' of your own for that specific performance. Most great performers change interpretations over years, so what you did today may not be valid tomorrow etc; (the Shakespeare equivalent of bowing is punctuation - just look at two or three paperback copies of a speech in the same Shakespeare play and you'll see what I mean. Punctuation, like bowing, is an indicator of breath and phrasing).

Too many of the young bassists I've heard are brilliant and boring - more concerned with the technical acrobatics of playing the suites "at pitch" than actually thinking about the music - what it means, why it means that, what response to they want from the listener etc;

In the interview link I posted earlier, the interviewer talks about Pierre Fournier's master class (on Youtube now) where he describes the first movement of the first suite as a river flowing to the sea. Anner says that's what it means to Fournier - fine. Here's what it means to me. (The other great quote Fournier has in the video is that he says that - paraphrasing - if in the old days Bach was played to the glory of God, then today it is played to the glory of the metronome.)

So - I play the old Peters edition 'cause I have a fighting chance with the notes, but, more important, it allows me to ENCOUNTER the music, which I would probably never get to do if I was trying to play it in the stratosphere.

Those of you (youngsters!) blessed enough with the technique and lucky enough to be living in an era where technology has made all sorts of things possible on the bass, should (?- a bit prescriptive, but...) spend as much time thinking about the music with your head and heart and well as your fingers. That's the real challenge of Bach.

OK - next week I lecture on sin.

Louis

Here's a review of a current production in LA. I put here just to show that in my own work, I try to practice what I preach.

Backstage West
March 25, 2009
Reviewed by Hoyt Hilsman

Theatre Director Louis Fantasia brings an unusual purity and integrity to his interpretation of Shakespeare's tale of the doomed lovers. With a strong ensemble cast and several standout performances, this production relies less on gimmicks and devices than on a strong and intelligent reading of the text.

Fantasia's staging begins much as it might have in Shakespeare's Old Globe: The cast mingles casually with the audience before the announcement of the play by Prince Escalus (played impressively by Jessica Spotts). The action is crisp and lively, as the Montagues and Capulets set the stage for their deadly feud. Niall Padden is exceptional as Lord Capulet, bringing a power and nuance to the role throughout. Isabella Hofmann is a quietly effective presence as Lady Capulet, and Tony Motzenbacker is a strong, wise force as Friar Lawrence. On the lighter side, Jill Holden as the Nurse and Michael Naishtut as Peter are outstanding in presenting the humor and pathos of their characters. Holden is particularly adept at capturing the fleeting emotions of each moment and wrangling Shakespeare's language so that it flows like everyday vernacular. Michael Matthys is an extraordinary Mercutio, pointed and poignant in his interpretation, adding immensely to the tragedy and the texture of the piece.

However, the evening belongs most to the two lovers. Megan Goodchild is radiant and penetrating as the rebellious young innocent. Goodchild finds the subtext in every scene and goes straight for the heart of the character. Frederik Hamel is less effective as Romeo, hampered somewhat by an accent that trips unnaturally over the Bard's words. But he brings a raw power to the role that ultimately touches on the depths of the tragedy. It is rare that audiences get a chance to see Shakespeare unadorned by artifice or updating. The set by Adam Blumenthal and costumes by Howard Schmitt are simple and practical, and are effective backdrops to Shakespeare's words. In this production, the play is the thing. And Fantasia's direction brings the text to life unadorned, unvarnished and with great integrity."

 

[David Kaczorowski]

You mean reading the pitches as if they were written for bass, or playing them at cello pitch?

At pitch, meaning not transposing down an octave for the bass as bass players are taught to do; first note of Minuet I is open G. They really lay nicely this way.

When I began learning the first minuet, if I had a question abou the character of a line I played it down an octave to hear it, then took it up to work out the fingering. It does sound beautiful down an octave, but I like not inverting octaves for the notes below E.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

At pitch, meaning not transposing down an octave for the bass as bass players are taught to do; first note of Minuet I is open G. They really lay nicely this way.

When I began learning the first minuet, if I had a question abou the character of a line I played it down an octave to hear it, then took it up to work out the fingering. It does sound beautiful down an octave, but I like not inverting octaves for the notes below E.

Understood. I've heard several bass recordings like this, including Bradetich (sp?) and Edgar. It sounds cool, and I imagine in some ways lays better. How do you play the buildup to the last few bars in that register, against the open harmonic?

I don't think this register would speak very well pizz at all, but I enjoy hearing others do it. Do you find it difficult to pull of with jazz string height? I've noticed that on my bass, my string height and tension kind of chokes the arco sound. Of course, my inherent lack of skill with the bow chokes the arco sound even more.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Understood. I've heard several bass recordings like this, including Bradetich (sp?) and Edgar. It sounds cool, and I imagine in some ways lays better. How do you play the buildup to the last few bars in that register, against the open harmonic?

If I only sounded like that...

Specifically, which measures are you asking about?

I don't think this register would speak very well pizz at all, but I enjoy hearing others do it. Do you find it difficult to pull of with jazz string height? I've noticed that on my bass, my string height and tension kind of chokes the arco sound. Of course, my inherent lack of skill with the bow chokes the arco sound even more.

I have my bass set-up for optimum sound (for me), regardless of arco or pizz. What is jazz string height? I think having the strings too high chokes the sound, and too low is mushy, but the ideal height would change if I used different strings; or my strings on a different bass.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

If I only sounded like that...

Specifically, which measures are you asking about?

The last 4 bars, which are an absolute booger to finger the way I'm doing it. Plus, I'm going to really have to break the last triple stop to make it work. I can't decide yet whether to play the first two notes together and then hit the high G, or to play the low G and then try to nail the last 6th cold as a double stop. Helluva way to end the Prelude!

I have my bass set-up for optimum sound (for me), regardless of arco or pizz. What is jazz string height? I think having the strings too high chokes the sound, and too low is mushy, but the ideal height would change if I used different strings; or my strings on a different bass.

Agreed. From what I've seen around these parts, my height and tension is on the high/tense side (Doms/stark at 7-10 mm) compared to the arco players I run into, who tend to go a bit lower and have looser strings on to start with. I love the sound of the setup I have now in terms of body and power, but that height and tension makes for a lot of clicking and clacking, which gives me sort of a "harpsichord -on-steroids" vibe I'm not as crazy about.

Which brings me to the point I'm at now with the Courante, which has a more sprightly character than the others. The thing I feel is missing for me so far is the "lightness" of touch that I hear in a lot of the cello versions. It's not that I feel it can't be done pizz, but rather that I have a ways to go before it starts to feel nimble and dancelike. Listening back to the practice takes I posted, the sound seems very full blooded, which is good. OTOH, there's a lot of room left for nuance of dynamics and articulation. In recording parlance, I feel like I need to apply some "reverse compression" (decompression?) to the technique in order to catch the mood of the thing: IOW, keep the peaks at the same level they are currently at, but bring down the floor of the quieter parts. Hopefully, this will increase the feeling of dynamic range of the whole.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

The last 4 bars, which are an absolute booger to finger the way I'm doing it. Plus, I'm going to really have to break the last triple stop to make it work. I can't decide yet whether to play the first two notes together and then hit the high G, or to play the low G and then try to nail the last 6th cold as a double stop. Helluva way to end the Prelude!

I play the 3rd and 4th bars before the end all on the G string. From the pick-up on beat three of the previous measure I play open D, open G, now all on the G string 1 t 3 1 t 3 | 1 t 3 1 t 2 | 1 2 3 1(d string) open D 2 3 ||

I don't play a chord at the end. The cello edition I have indicates octave G's, but I just play one G at the octave harmonic. If you want to play a chord there you'd play low G first (play it open and short like a grace note) then the minor 6th, 1 B on the D string, pinky on the G harmonic.

Which brings me to the point I'm at now with the Courante, which has a more sprightly character than the others. The thing I feel is missing for me so far is the "lightness" of touch that I hear in a lot of the cello versions. It's not that I feel it can't be done pizz, but rather that I have a ways to go before it starts to feel nimble and dancelike. Listening back to the practice takes I posted, the sound seems very full blooded, which is good. OTOH, there's a lot of room left for nuance of dynamics and articulation.

That's the "breathing" I was talking about.

 

[rdwhit]

I couldn't find the Pierre Fournie masterclass on youtube. Help anyone?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I play the 3rd and 4th bars before the end all on the G string. From the pick-up on beat three of the previous measure I play open D, open G, now all on the G string 1 t 3 1 t 3 | 1 t 3 1 t 2 | 1 2 3 1(d string) open D 2 3 ||

Arghhh...internet communication about music notation! I feel like a dummy. The two arpeggiated measures before the last triple stop have the pitches:

G...B...D...B...G...B...G...B...(repeated)// F#...C...D...C...F#...C...F#...C...// (from bottom to top, last chord) G...B...G

Where are you playing the low "D" in the figure> On the first string with the 3rd finger? I just tried it, and it feels almost physically impossible. Or am I misunderstanding something?

I don't play a chord at the end. The cello edition I have indicates octave G's, but I just play one G at the octave harmonic. If you want to play a chord there you'd play low G first (play it open and short like a grace note) then the minor 6th, 1 B on the D string, pinky on the G harmonic.

I'll try that when I get home. I just love the full blooded triple stop that the cellists are able to do (actually an open string and a double stop).

That's the "breathing" I was talking about.

Gotcha. Once you get past the technical issues, that's the "holy grail" of the whole thing.

 

[rdwhit]

This might be slightly off topic. I don't have the chops for the suites. I've heard that some of the gamba sonatas may be a little easier. Any thoughts on this or other Bach solo pieces that are easier? Sometimes I workout with the Zimmerman orch book. I like to play them both arco & pizz. Thanks

 

[Uncletoad]

I haven't said anything in this thread because I really have nothing to contribute of forward moving value however I need to subscrible cause I keep looking at it.

Moreover I wanted to mention that since you started this I've got the charts and some recordings and started to very horridly bow through these things.

It's a total ****ing gas!