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Double Bass Bach Suite 1 - questions from Hillwilliam country

#23
If I'm not mistaken about all of the cords in suite 1 are very playable, weather you play it at pitch, or down an octave.

And for the C, if you are set playing it in the octave/key you are, then I would just play the lowest C you can, maybe play it on the E string for a darker sound.
 
#25
Okay, just for yuks I did a quick and dirty practice take of the Minuet from this suite tonight on the trusty old R-09. Obviously, it's full of boogers from beginning to end, but that's what practice recordings are for, right? :bag: One of the things I'm trying to learn is when the hammers and pulls are effective means of articulating legato, and when they just aren't strong enough to pull that intent off. On this take, there are quite a few hammers that just aren't cutting it yet... but at least I know what to practice at super slow speed. As far as RH pizz articulations, the most frustrating thing so far is the drastic difference in sound between my index and middle fingers (recording is mostly index). The middle finger at this point is almost unusable because it has a lot more noise on the attack side of the note, and sounds brighter and flimsier somehow. Does anyone have any thoughts on things to try to better match the sound of the two RH fingers?

It was inspiring to hear the fingerboard noise on the Bylsma recording, and to notice how much force he puts into some of his LH stops! I also love the way he phrases on that recording. That's something that I think will be really useful to try to learn in my own playing, and something that must be worked out slow and long term to be effective.
 

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#26
I always have enjoyed your musicality. I'm looking forward to hearing what you do with it in the future. Just curious about some of the short notes. I'm thinking of the 2nd note and the notes that precede each double stop. I don't hear them that way but I could always be enlightened.
 
#27
Thanks, John. The truth about the short notes is probably something thoughtless and/or practical but not necessarily musical. I think the second note has to do with having heard Starker play it that way for so long, and reading about him striving to make some of the movements more "dancelike". That said, I obviously need to listen to more recordings. Right before the double stops - especially the ones with the little trills - I just don't have the chops to pull those off legato yet. You're probably right that the music would be better served by a more legato articulation there and at the ends of phrases. Exactly the kind of feedback I'm after. Thanks!
 
#28
I hear a lightness in your playing that lends itself to the dancelike nature of that movement in particular. It always sounds forward-moving to my ears regardless of the length of the notes. It's so much easier to critique others than it is to critique myself. :)

I haven't listened to his recordings for a while but what about Pablo Casals? From my recollection I remember them to be very musical. I believe they were the first recordings ever made of the cello suites.
 
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#30
It's not full of boogies at all. Be careful not to rush the 8th notes in a few spots. Be expressive and make the lines breathe. I'd forget about hammers and pulls, at least for now. Articulate every note, and as you internalize it those spots will be evident to you in how YOU hear it. If you're currently using mostly index finger don't change it. Don't alternate fingers just for the sake of alternating fingers. But if there is a spot that's easier to play with your middle finger do it. I don't know what your right hand looks like, but for this I'd use the same pizz I use for jazz; middle finger parallel to the string, using the entire side of my finger from the big knuckle to the tip. Obviously I can't use my middle finger parallel to the string so I position it as close to parallel as possible and sweep it across the string using all the meat on the pad. My index and middle fingers don't sound identical but they are very, very close. Good job.
 
#31
Thanks for listening, fellas. I can hear lots of places that feel rushed in this version. It's good for me to listen to a bunch of different versions to see how much liberty different folks take with the phrasing. David, the pizz on this is mostly the middle knuckle of the index finger on down. Whenever i try to use anything else, i hear too much "click" on the attack, like listening to a harpsichord from close up.
 
#33
David Kaczorowski said:
I don't know what your right hand looks like, but for this I'd use the same pizz I use for jazz; middle finger parallel to the string, using the entire side of my finger from the big knuckle to the tip. Obviously I can't use my middle finger parallel to the string so I position it as close to parallel as possible and sweep it across the string using all the meat on the pad.
Click to expand...

I should've proof read better, I meant to type "index finger parallel."

I think the click you're hearing when you use your middle finger might be because you're pulling the string down instead of sideways.
 
#34
ehochberg said:
Sounds really nice, Chris. I've been working on a few of the suites for a while but still don't have the balls to record myself. You're an inspiration. :)
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Thanks Eric, but remember, I've heard you play, and I've heard some of your recordings. If you wanted to, you could record the snot out the suites, I bet. You do stuff in your sleep that I'd have trouble pulling off wide awake after a triple espresso with a Nodoze chaser. :) Just curious, do you do the suites you mentioned arco or pizz?

Dave - I done knowd what you meant, you city slicker, you. For normal stuff, I don't feel like my middle finger sounds too bad, and usually matches the index pretty well - I try to make it a point to pull the string in the same direction with both. With the suites, seeing as how I'm already perpetrating sacrilege by playing them pizz, I feel that it's best to minimize the click on the front of the attack to better imitate the original legto intent of the lines. So far, my index finger seems to be far better at this, but I'll keep working on it. :)
 
#35
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Just curious, do you do the suites you mentioned arco or pizz?
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Chris, you're too kind, thanks, man. I practice them arco. I think it is somewhat true about teaching an old dog new tricks, but I enjoy it so I'll keep going at it. I think some coaching would help me a lot if I decided to get serious about it. My arco chops are pretty basic and I just go by the seat of my pants...
 
#36
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Dave - I done knowd what you meant, you city slicker, you. For normal stuff, I don't feel like my middle finger sounds too bad, and usually matches the index pretty well - I try to make it a point to pull the string in the same direction with both. With the suites, seeing as how I'm already perpetrating sacrilege by playing them pizz, I feel that it's best to minimize the click on the front of the attack to better imitate the original legto intent of the lines. So far, my index finger seems to be far better at this, but I'll keep working on it. :)
Click to expand...


Durrrl, you simple hillbilly, I was correcting myself for posterity and all the young, impressionable beginners who might've read my post and actually believed I use only my middle finger.

I wasn't going to mention the arco-less nature of your recording because I figured at at least you ain't playin 'em ona washtub.
 
#37
I've been farting around with the Suite I Prelude in G and and the Bourree' I & II from Suite III for many years now. I've been using the blue Markevitch book and usually have a run at these on Sunday mornings over a good cup of coffee. It's as close to going to church as I'm gonna get! ; )

A good teacher once told me if I wanted to learn the classical origins of bebop phrasing to check out some Bach.

I have the Edgar Meyer CD as well as Yo Yo Ma's complete 6 Suites. Yo Yo tunes down a half step and it sounds so frickin' DARK!

I also whack away at these Pizz but could see attempting the bow at some future point...once I actually buy one, that is!
 
#38
Here's a quick and dirty end-of-practice take of the Allemande. It's got more than a few challenges in it (and a few intonation boogers in the recording) to keep me busy for a while. One of the most interesting technical things about it is trying to intonate the upward 6th leaps. I've found that thinking of/feeling a 5th shape plus a whole step for the major 6th helps, but am still looking for other options. In the end, they're all just practice and then faith. The other thing that completely confounds me at this point is how to do something meaningful on the repeats. Maybe when they're better under the fingers, there will be a feeling of freedom to attempt more variation. Right now it mostly just feels like basically saying the same thing twice.

In addition to the Starker and Edgar recordings, I've been enjoying This record a lot as well. Does anybody know of this cellist?
 

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#39
Bass sounds great, DURRL. I can relate on the repeats issue, I feel the same way. I'm open to anyone's suggestions.

I can lose a whole afternoon trying to play these things. Just get into the zone sometimes, it's so much fun. It's funny, because I know that they're good for me, like health food. But they sound so good, even with just me hacking through them, that I'm unaware that I'm playing something that's honing my technique. I have an acoustic bass guitar student who has become rather obsessed with the suites, after my introducing them to him a couple of months ago. He had some damage in his ring finger as a kid, and he's found that he's getting mobility and strength back from playing them.

After I play them at home for awhile, I find the themes sticking in my head for quite some time. Nice place to be.

PS... I need to try them pizz! Never did that yet. Weird, just didn't occur to me.
 
#40
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Here's a quick and dirty end-of-practice take of the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. It's got more than a few challenges in it (and a few intonation boogers in the recording) to keep me busy for a while. One of the most interesting technical things about it is trying to intonate the upward 6th leaps. I've found that thinking of/feeling a 5th shape plus a whole step for the major 6th helps, but am still looking for other options. In the end, they're all just practice and then faith. The other thing that completely confounds me at this point is how to do something meaningful on the repeats. Maybe when they're better under the fingers, there will be a feeling of freedom to attempt more variation. Right now it mostly just feels like basically saying the same thing twice.

In addition to the Starker and Edgar recordings, I've been enjoying This record a lot as well. Does anybody know of this cellist?
Click to expand...

That sounds great! I've been playing that same Allemande arco w/some of the sections up the octave from the version your playing.
It's been kicking my butt for weeks, but it's great practice. Finally feel like I'm getting it down, but I have to be really warmed up to pull it off.
Which edition are you using?

Bri
 

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