Baer Amplification Megathread!

[svtb15]

Ill bet it sounds good... Ive been playing my P5 with rounds.. my Alleva p4 with flats or rounds "depends on gig" and a Fender RW Jazz with rounds. I rotate those three when needed.
Ill bet the Paper mid sounds great.. I DONT need Tweeter type highs nor do i really like that these days.. In the 80s i did.. Because i did slap etc on many gigs. I dont anymore..

I know what you meen by the Lows of a fearful can be "very nice or problematic " at times. I love deep pillow under a nice clear mid .. But it can be a mess depending on teh room or a sound guy that doesnt know how to slot a mix in a bad room.

It doesn't have "the super lows" that can be very nice sometimes, and, semi-problem sometimes.
The 212 is a little fatter than my 2xML112; but either can take a little low eq and feel fat in a good way.
with no horn, it manages to go almost as high, but without "harsh." I'm a round wounds guy, and it totally represents.
mids and low mids are excellent.

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

Ill bet it sounds good... Ive been playing my P5 with rounds.. my Alleva p4 with flats or rounds "depends on gig" and a Fender RW Jazz with rounds. I rotate those three when needed.
Ill bet the Paper mid sounds great.. I DONT need Tweeter type highs nor do i really like that these days.. In the 80s i did.. Because i did slap etc on many gigs. I dont anymore..

I know what you meen by the Lows of a fearful can be "very nice or problematic " at times. I love deep pillow under a nice clear mid .. But it can be a mess depending on teh room or a sound guy that doesnt know how to slot a mix in a bad room.

I have not tried the Berg, but I love the ML115. As Chef says, it doesn't have super lows, but it does go deep, yet it is tight and controlled. I find it to be a deeper and ballsier version of a typical 12, yet maintaining the low end control of a 12. If that makes any sense!

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

I am going to throw it back and +1 this. There are a handful of cabs that would make me beyond happy to see on a stage as provided backline. Roger's are high on the list.

Four ML115's and a Valkyrie? Yes please.

Yikes!! I am considering a second ML115 for my Monique, and I can't imagine needing anything more than that!

 

[R Baer]

Hey Roger; Are you still working on a smaller, D-class 2 ohm kinda head?

Right now, we are just focused on finishing up the direct box. I really feel that box has to be world class, so it is not going out until I feel it has reached that point. The distortion it creates is critical to me being happy with it, but when it comes to tubes and transformers, there seems to be just as much magic involved as there is science. It's very close right now. I originally thought we would use the front end of the VTI for the new amp, so we have been holding off on finishing the amp design until the VTI is done, so I can make that evaluation. Right now I would say that the front end of the VTI would make a wicked, albeit expensive, preamp section for a new amp.

I'm kind of glad the project got delayed a bit. With so many new amps hitting the market this year it gives me a chance to evaluate the competition a bit better. I've never seen the point in doing what someone else has already done a good job of, so the new amp has to bring something new to the table. With the VTI's front end, we should be able to bring a unique sonic signature to the amp that will be cool. The industrial design has been done for a little while so hopefully we can dive in here soon, once the VTI is out the door.

 

[Chef]

Thanks for the update Roger

 

[morebassbaby]

Having had experience with the Valkyrie, I would absolutely pay for the front end of the VTI to be in a this new amp, because I can already tell it will be special! The low to midrange market of lightweight class D amps is already saturated with GK, Markbass, everyone else ect. I'm not saying that because I would pay means everyone else would pay, but I do know that everything Baer I have played has been so thoughtful in design, and Roger a Class Act. I'm really excited to see what you come up with Roger!

 

[CElton]

Mmm...VTI, drool

 

[R Baer]

Having had experience with the Valkyrie, I would absolutely pay for the front end of the VTI to be in a this new amp, because I can already tell it will be special! The low to midrange market of lightweight class D amps is already saturated with GK, Markbass, everyone else ect. I'm not saying that because I would pay means everyone else would pay, but I do know that everything Baer I have played has been so thoughtful in design, and Roger a Class Act. I'm really excited to see what you come up with Roger!

Appreciate the kind thoughts. A class D will be an interesting project for me because I'm still not that crazy about the technology and doubt I ever will be. One thing I learned with the Valkyrie is that the power section has a huge impact on the tone and feel of an amp. With the bulk of the class D amps out there all using the same output modules, the class D market basically becomes all about preamp design because you've eliminated two of the major components (power supply and amp) that typically makes bass amps sound different. I obviously can't compete on price point with a company that buys modules in large volumes, so the trick will be coming up with a tone and features that will be worth the big step up in price. Like I said, it will be an interesting project and I'm still trying to figure out where (and if) we would fit in this market.

 

[Holdsg]

= good times for consumers, more challenging times for niche manufacturers

 

[svtb15]

so many Amp builders swear the Class D has nothing to do with the sound of the amp.. I am glad that you and i agree that it does make a difference.. .
I have done so many tests with people that are high up teh FOH ladder. And we all know it does make a difference.
Class D is great but its not the same.. Its a Feel thing .. I had a huge thread a couple months ago .. it went around and around and none of the class D builders were ever able to confirm a standard at which the test their amps.. .
No disrespect to them at all..
But there is a difference between playing PROGRAM Material through a PA and playing bass thru a bass rig Most Program material is compressed and smoothed/ dithered etc....
Bass is more Raw..
I like my Class D amps They are fine for most applications. But when it comes to what i like to feel , the old style poweramp/ preamp delivers in a way that no amount of EQing a Class D can accomplish IMO and IME

Appreciate the kind thoughts. A class D will be an interesting project for me because I'm still not that crazy about the technology and doubt I ever will be. One thing I learned with the Valkyrie is that the power section has a huge impact on the tone and feel of an amp. With the bulk of the class D amps out there all using the same output modules, the class D market basically becomes all about preamp design because you've eliminated one of the major components that makes one amp different from the rest. I obviously can't compete on price point with a company that buys modules in large volumes, so the trick will be coming up with a tone and features that will be worth the big step up in price. Like I said, it will be an interesting project and I'm still trying to figure out where (and if) we would fit in this market.

 

[R Baer]

so many Amp builders swear the Class D has nothing to do with the sound of the amp.. I am glad that you and i agree that it does make a difference.. I have done so many tests with people that are high up the FOH ladder. And we all know it does make a difference....

I have a few friends that do FOH as well and they've told me that the decision to go class D is based mostly on cost to transport and operate and not because they prefer the tone. When you have to set up, tear down and transport a large production on a daily basis, the advantages to class D make the decision a no brainer. It's a technology with a lot of advantages, but I just prefer the tone and feel of traditional topologies when it comes to bass amps.

 

[agedhorse]

As someone with a lot of experience "high up the FOH ladder", I have found very few FOH engineers I have worked with that would ever go back to old school amps, and not just because of the weight or power density. Depending on the amps being compared, there are plenty of class D examples that are as good or superior to their old school counter counterparts. ESPECIALLY for low end because of the way they handle BIG reactive loads like sub speaker motors.

The same arguments have been made of digital versus analog consoles (I prefer analog, not for the audio quality but for the user interface), Neo speakers, etc.

Sure there are differences in opinion, but there's plenty of support at the pro level for class D technology. I have found that the majority of naysayers are those who do not understand the technology or do not know how to work with it, so rather than learn about it's nuances and design (or apply) the tools properly, it's easier to blame the tools instead.

This is from an old dog (or horse) who has been designing linear class AB/G/H amps for many, many years. It became pretty clear that there were some major advances coming to the market that would eliminate some of the real bottlenecks and limitations class AB brings to the party. That was the time I started studying and learning about the technology, so that when it was ready for prime time, I was ready too. That said, I do enjoy sitting down and designing large linear power amps, just glad I don't have to compete commercially with them

 

[R Baer]

As someone with a lot of experience "high up the FOH ladder", I have found very few FOH engineers I have worked with that would ever go back to old school amps, and not just because of the weight or power density. Depending on the amps being compared, there are plenty of class D examples that are as good or superior to their old school counter counterparts. ESPECIALLY for low end because of the way they handle BIG reactive loads like sub speaker motors.

The same arguments have been made of digital versus analog consoles (I prefer analog, not for the audio quality but for the user interface), Neo speakers, etc.

Sure there are differences in opinion, but there's plenty of support at the pro level for class D technology. I have found that the majority of naysayers are those who do not understand the technology or do not know how to work with it, so rather than learn about it's nuances and design (or apply) the tools properly, it's easier to blame the tools instead.

This is from an old dog (or horse) who has been designing linear class AB/G/H amps for many, many years. It became pretty clear that there were some major advances coming to the market that would eliminate some of the real bottlenecks and limitations class AB brings to the party. That was the time I started studying and learning about the technology, so that when it was ready for prime time, I was ready too. That said, I do enjoy sitting down and designing large linear power amps, just glad I don't have to compete commercially with them

I really prefer to stay away from the class D debate here, but let me just say this. I've never heard anything in my own personal experience to indicate to me that power sections are "just power" and irrelevant to the sound and feel of a bass amp. If people disagree, that's fine, but just try taking the preamp out from your class D amp and run it into something like a Crest CA9, or even the effects return of an old GK RB800 sometime. I would be quite surprised to hear that you don't notice an immediate difference in the way the low end sounds and feels. Whether you like it better or not, is of course up to you.

Andy is one heck of an engineer, but we obviously have differences of opinions when it comes to things like power sections. I definitely prefer old school amps and want nothing to do with an amp that I have to scroll through menus, or get out my reading glasses to use, but it's not because I have an aversion to new technology. To the contrary, I tend to be a first adopter of new technologies that come out, but only when that new technology works better for me than the old technology. The day I come across a class D bass amp that floats my boat like an Aguilar DB750, Eden WT800, Mesa Big Block 750, or GK RB800, I will certainly be willing to admit my opinion has changed.

I still feel that the big difference lies in the way the switch mode power supply sustains power to the note compared to a large transformer and traditional power supply. Sure, a SMPS can absolutely be designed that closely mimics the behavior of a large transformer, but keep in mind I'm not talking about the theoretical capabilities of SMPS and class D in general. What I'm talking about specifically, are the small class D modules (with their integrated SMPS) that are being used in a large majority of the bass amps out there. To me there's a big difference between these modules and a well designed class A/B amp bass amp that has a large transformer and huge power supply caps.

Andy and I disagree on class D much the same way that two luthiers disagree on fingerboard woods or pickups, but at the end of the day, they all plug in and sound like basses and players will certainly have their preferneces. Some players prefer rosewood and some players prefer maple.

 

[Lowendtech]

I'd like to chime in to say that these work very nicely together. I like tubes, I like SS lead sleds and I like "this" class D. All of them sound great through these cabs.
Damn, life is good in front of this stack.
Rw.

 

[R Baer]

Great rig and that P-Bass is pretty cool too!

 

[tink9975]

just needs one more ML112...

 

[svtb15]

IME i have to agree with you...
People think it is only hearing bass. Its not// There is a FEEL thing with bass. Some people will never understand that unless they are a player.

I really prefer to stay away from the class D debate here, but let me just say this. I've never heard anything in my own personal experience to indicate to me that power sections are "just power" and irrelevant to the sound and feel of a bass amp. If people disagree, that's fine, but just try taking the preamp out from your class D amp and run it into something like a Crest CA9, or even the effects return of an old GK RB800 sometime. I would be quite surprised to hear that you don't notice an immediate difference in the way the low end sounds and feels. Whether you like it better or not, is of course up to you.

Andy is one heck of an engineer, but we obviously have differences of opinions when it comes to things like power sections. I definitely prefer old school amps and want nothing to do with an amp that I have to scroll through menus, or get out my reading glasses to use, but it's not because I have an aversion to new technology. To the contrary, I tend to be a first adopter of new technologies that come out, but only when that new technology works better for me than the old technology. The day I come across a class D bass amp that floats my boat like an Aguilar DB750, Eden WT800, Mesa Big Block 750, or GK RB800, I will certainly be willing to admit my opinion has changed.

I still feel that the big difference lies in the way the switch mode power supply sustains power to the note compared to a large transformer and traditional power supply. Sure, a SMPS can absolutely be designed that closely mimics the behavior of a large transformer, but keep in mind I'm not talking about the theoretical capabilities of SMPS and class D in general. What I'm talking about specifically, are the small class D modules (with their integrated SMPS) that are being used in a large majority of the bass amps out there. To me there's a big difference between these and a well designed class A/B amp bass amp that has a large transformer and huge power supply caps.

Andy and I disagree on class D much the same way that two luthiers disagree on fingerboard woods or pickups, but at the end of the day, they all plug in and sound like basses and players will certainly have their preferneces. Some prefer rosewood, others prefer maple.

 

[svtb15]

I didn't mean for you to become defensive from my "high up the FOH ladder" post.
Im not sure why you get so heated whenever this comes up..But you do. I was replying to the thread about why certain people prefer to not use Class D or its accompanied SMPS at this time.. There re MANY Class D amps out there that are GREAT.. But its still different and the makers have not figured it out yet..

YES, the technology has come a loooong way..
I was just working with Bonnie Raitts FOH that i gig with from time to time , Ex Whitney Houston's guy Dave, Bangles FOH, a friend that is out with another huge "A" act right now.
We talk all the time.. Perhaps twice a month . We were on this subject just a short time ago . Theses guys NEVER get to lift or move any gear. They just push faders for the TV and LIVE sows.
Each one uses the lightweight amps in their rigs.. Meyer, Claire , MSI etc. They are fine with it. But when asked they tell me the older lightweights deliver the heft.. Are they all lying amongst themselves and to me when i ask what they really think?
I dont think so..
Like i have explained . Program material reacts one way . while playing a Bass instrument that is a very INTERACTIVE activity is heftier with the other type amps. I cant give you technical reasons why.. Thats not my job..
Preamp etc make difference. too.

I know that you are a fabulous engineer with lots of experience . But when you "Dismiss" what people tell you they feel in their gear, is counter productive and wont change the reality of what we are experiencing... Graphs, Charts, specs, don't mean anything in the activity of bass playing ..

Program material and Mildly soft acoustic music does not have the same Nuance as BAss>cable>preamp> poweramp>speaker ..

As someone with a lot of experience "high up the FOH ladder", I have found very few FOH engineers I have worked with that would ever go back to old school amps, and not just because of the weight or power density. Depending on the amps being compared, there are plenty of class D examples that are as good or superior to their old school counter counterparts. ESPECIALLY for low end because of the way they handle BIG reactive loads like sub speaker motors.

The same arguments have been made of digital versus analog consoles (I prefer analog, not for the audio quality but for the user interface), Neo speakers, etc.

Sure there are differences in opinion, but there's plenty of support at the pro level for class D technology. I have found that the majority of naysayers are those who do not understand the technology or do not know how to work with it, so rather than learn about it's nuances and design (or apply) the tools properly, it's easier to blame the tools instead.

This is from an old dog (or horse) who has been designing linear class AB/G/H amps for many, many years. It became pretty clear that there were some major advances coming to the market that would eliminate some of the real bottlenecks and limitations class AB brings to the party. That was the time I started studying and learning about the technology, so that when it was ready for prime time, I was ready too. That said, I do enjoy sitting down and designing large linear power amps, just glad I don't have to compete commercially with them

 

[agedhorse]

Kirk,

Your experience and mine differ when it comes to PA. None of the guys I what've worked with (at that level) really care one bit that the amps are SMPS powered, and for many of the new speaker products, they are only available as powered boxes. I don't hear anybody complaining about the powered Meyer, Vertec, RH, or EAW products, or the pre-packaged power V-Dosc, etc. if it really was that big of a deal, these manufacturers would have bowed to their demands.

I just get frustrated with folks recalling the good ol days as always being better than they were. In this case, I have been heavily involved with both the good ol days as well as today, and have designed pro audio product during both time periods.

The same arguments were used for Neo, solid state, active electronics, advanced manufacturing technologies such as CNC, PLEK, advanced adhesives like polyurethane glues and epoxies, etc.

 

[svtb15]

As they say Different strokes for different folks. I hear ya.. I understand what to year saying too.. And i am NOT the antichrist of Class D . SMPS etc. I just think that they are different sounding.. A better term would be different FEELING.. Bass is interactive to me.

Although, i did play your new Mesa D800 and the prototype version of the new Genzler Magellan 800 amp.. In my opinion those two are CLEARLY different than previous consumer grade Class D / smps bass amps that i have tried. Just my opinion..
When i say Clearly Different i mean clearly Better, or more able to satisfy the ears of people with pro level wishes..
Something advanced forward in those 2 amps, I don't know what it is, but its different...