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Bag End Club.

I'm currently upgrading my rig and have been working and talking with folks from Bag End. They are taking a bit longer to reply so I'm now shopping on my own for used Bag End gear. I currently play through 2 combo amps so going the cab and head route is very new for me. I'm looking for help on the rig I'm trying to build.

What I'm considering is running a 1x18 as well as a 2x10. From my conversations with Bag End, I need to separate the cabs so I'm getting the benefit of each cab separately. What I'm not sure is what kind of power amp I would need to run both. I'm also looking at an Alembic F-1x or F-2b preamp to run. I simply don't know what I'm doing. Can anyone help? Mainly trying to figure out what brand and specs for a power amp. Also how to set this up correctly using the F-1x or 2b so I get the full tonal qualities of both cabs.

S18E-D data sheet - https://bagend.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/S18E-D.pdf
D10BX-N data sheet - [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I play in a Grateful Dead tribute and this is another piece in getting that Phil tone!
You should have them build these as self-powered cabs.

Just to throw this out there:

A 2x10 and a 1x18 is kinda overkill (heavy) to get the Lesh sound. If ya get the Alembic pre, 2 1x15s would do great. After all, their 1x15s we're inspired by the 1x15s Alembic designed for Phil's wall of sound stack.

Side note: One piece of Phil's tone that gets overlooked is the strings. He used Pyramid Gold Flats for most of the time. Put those on almost any bass with either bi-Sonic or thunderbucker like pickups and you can dial in Phil on almost any gear.

But, the quest for Phil's sound varies by time period. This all assumes you're looking for the early 70s to early 80s sound. Later time period you'd be looking at 10s and 15s and at some point he ditched the Alembic pre and went with Eden cabs and heads.
 
You should have them build these as self-powered cabs.

Just to throw this out there:

A 2x10 and a 1x18 is kinda overkill (heavy) to get the Lesh sound. If ya get the Alembic pre, 2 1x15s would do great. After all, their 1x15s we're inspired by the 1x15s Alembic designed for Phil's wall of sound stack.

Side note: One piece of Phil's tone that gets overlooked is the strings. He used Pyramid Gold Flats for most of the time. Put those on almost any bass with either bi-Sonic or thunderbucker like pickups and you can dial in Phil on almost any gear.

But, the quest for Phil's sound varies by time period. This all assumes you're looking for the early 70s to early 80s sound. Later time period you'd be looking at 10s and 15s and at some point he ditched the Alembic pre and went with Eden cabs and heads.
Appreciate your input. I went to the Bag End HQ last week and played through several and for some reason their 1x15 doesn't sound good to me, sounds too mid rangey. I played the 2x10 and 1x18 setup and it was absolutely perfect! I'm shopping these cabs used and many of the used items online don't have the powered amps included.

Do you know what power amp would work for both cabs if I end up with the non-powered amps?
 
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Appreciate your input. I went to the Bag End HQ last week and played through several and for some reason their 1x15 doesn't sound good to me, sounds too mid rangey. I played the 2x15 and 1x18 setup and it was absolutely perfect! I'm shopping these cabs used and many of the used items online don't have the powered amps included.

Do you know what power amp would work for both cabs if I end up with the non-powered amps?
They make a S15L-N that has more low end beef, but still pretty portable.
 
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I really like the qsc gx5 but the crown xls series are also a nice light weight option:)

20210808_202103.jpg
 
Appreciate your input. I went to the Bag End HQ last week and played through several and for some reason their 1x15 doesn't sound good to me, sounds too mid rangey. I played the 2x15 and 1x18 setup and it was absolutely perfect! I'm shopping these cabs used and many of the used items online don't have the powered amps included.

Do you know what power amp would work for both cabs if I end up with the non-powered amps?
I can't recommend a power amp. You'll just need something that can run at 2.667 ohms safely.

This is where it actually makes a lot of sense to have an amp for each cab. You have mixed ohm loads and the cabs have different needs. There'll be sacrifices to be made trying to get one power amp to rule them all. You might find you get a good match for the 2x10s but, the 1x18 is sounding flat. Or, the other way around.

The amps built into the Bag Ends and "tuned" to each cab. So, you always know your getting the power the can needs.

BTW: they will retrofit non-powered cabs with the Minima 7. But, is kinda pricey.
 
I can't recommend a power amp. You'll just need something that can run at 2.667 ohms safely.

This is where it actually makes a lot of sense to have an amp for each cab. You have mixed ohm loads and the cabs have different needs. There'll be sacrifices to be made trying to get one power amp to rule them all. You might find you get a good match for the 2x10s but, the 1x18 is sounding flat. Or, the other way around.

The amps built into the Bag Ends and "tuned" to each cab. So, you always know your getting the power the can needs.

BTW: they will retrofit non-powered cabs with the Minima 7. But, is kinda pricey.
F it! Maybe I should just sell 1 Ethereum and buy the brand new powered cabs!!! Thanks for your input, everyone's input is so helpful
 
I can't recommend a power amp. You'll just need something that can run at 2.667 ohms safely.

This is where it actually makes a lot of sense to have an amp for each cab. You have mixed ohm loads and the cabs have different needs. There'll be sacrifices to be made trying to get one power amp to rule them all. You might find you get a good match for the 2x10s but, the 1x18 is sounding flat. Or, the other way around.

The amps built into the Bag Ends and "tuned" to each cab. So, you always know your getting the power the can needs.

BTW: they will retrofit non-powered cabs with the Minima 7. But, is kinda pricey.
There are a lotta rack-width heads with stereo power sections so one could drive each cab on one each channel. Also many with biamp capability. For example, my ol Carvin R1000 goes 500w each side (into 2 ohms). But there are many others, likely even some of the modern class d lunchbox sized that can power the cabs.
 
There are a lotta rack-width heads with stereo power sections so one could drive each cab on one each channel. Also many with biamp capability. For example, my ol Carvin R1000 goes 500w each side (into 2 ohms). But there are many others, likely even some of the modern class d lunchbox sized that can power the cabs.
Yep. I just don't have any idea which dual channel power amp would be a good recommendation.

I haven't run across any class D dual channels. But, the Minima 7 is just a small class D built into the cab and only adds about $500 to the price which is about what you'd pay for a class D head that can push 500 watts anyway. It's got a built in HPF, limiter and, it's clean power. And, it eliminates the need for speaker cables. The only down side that worries me at times is if the power amp craps out I can't just swap in a different one.
 
FWIW I got one of these on order and am patiently awaiting delivery. I used to own a pair in the deep red but sold them in my quest for lighter and smaller boxes. I will eventually buy a second and have a pair. I just can't get away from the thickness these 15L's provide, and two of them is mind blowing. They produce a fundamental E like no other cab I have played. There is no free lunch and sometimes you just gotta suck it up and go with the ceramics.

Screen Shot 2021-08-11 at 12.26.10 PM.png
 
FWIW I got one of these on order and am patiently awaiting delivery. I used to own a pair in the deep red but sold them in my quest for lighter and smaller boxes. I will eventually buy a second and have a pair. I just can't get away from the thickness these 15L's provide, and two of them is mind blowing. They produce a fundamental E like no other cab I have played. There is no free lunch and sometimes you just gotta suck it up and go with the ceramics.

View attachment 4365699
Ah, Mr. Fender, I had lurked around your forsale posts back then. I would have loved to pick them both up but couldn't get up your way and didn't care to pay for shipping. Glad they've both found good homes, and great to hear you still regard them so highly.
 
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FWIW I got one of these on order and am patiently awaiting delivery. I used to own a pair in the deep red but sold them in my quest for lighter and smaller boxes. I will eventually buy a second and have a pair. I just can't get away from the thickness these 15L's provide, and two of them is mind blowing. They produce a fundamental E like no other cab I have played. There is no free lunch and sometimes you just gotta suck it up and go with the ceramics.
View attachment 4365699
Yup! I bought a dolly to move them around. Still not bad at 54lbs for a single cab.
 
@Rhythmdoctor

Yes, you need a stereo power amp and also an INFRA integrator to use the components you have listed as intended.

Background:

From the S18E-D datasheet:
It is a sealed box type enclosure optimized for use with the Bag End® Infra™ processors for extended low frequency response.
Frequency Response specs:
60 Hz to 2 KHz ±3 dB
8 Hz to 95 Hz ±3 dB with external Infra™ Integrator
Sensitivity is listed as 96dB 2.83V/1m at 80hz. 2.83V at 8 ohms is 1W...so this is the same as 96dB 1W/1m. AFAIK, the sensitivity will drop by 12dB per octave below approximately 80hz. The Infra Integrator provides 12dB per octave of corrective EQ, which is how they get essentially flat response to 8hz. However, for each 3dB of correction, you need to double the power; so you quickly hit the speakers power handling limit.

The S18E-R datasheet provides the following.

Maximum Calculated Continuous Acoustic Output:
Half Space @ 1 Meter
10 Hz - 89 dBSPL
20 Hz - 101 dBSPL
40 Hz - 113 dBSPL
80 Hz - 124 dBSPL
Even 124dB at 80hz is really not very loud. So the SPL a single cab can produce at 40hz or lower, is probably too low to be considered usable.

There is really little if any point in using an 18" sub the starts to cutoff at 60hz, especially when the sensitivity/max SPL is so low.

The way to get usable response to a lower frequency is to use multiple cabs. Each doubling of cabs gives approximately +6dB in max SPL when they are tight packed. For example, two doublings equals four cabs and allows you to add +12dB. Here are the new +12dB figures.

Maximum Calculated Continuous Acoustic Output (four cabs):
10 Hz - 101 dBSPL
20 Hz - 113 dBSPL
40 Hz - 125 dBSPL
80 Hz - 136 dBSPL​


For the record, in the mid 90s I built a PA system with four S18E Compacts that had to be special ordered. The Compacts used the same drivers, but were half as deep as the regular single 18s. If I remember correctly this lowered the sensitivity rating by 3dB but had no impact on power handling. Each Compact had a dedicated 400W amp.

I had one of the original ELF 1 integrators that allowed you to customize the settings. If I remember correctly I experimented and set the LF cutoff at 40hz. Running the cutoff lower degraded the sound and further reduced headroom with no audible benefit that I could hear.

Even four of the Compacts were not massively loud IMHO. However this system was very compact and well liked for it's excellent mobility, and it stayed in service for over 15 years.
AFAIK the D10BX-N is not designed to use the Infra Integrator.

Frequency Response specs:
42 Hz to 16 kHz ±6 dB
Impedance is 4 ohms.

Sensitivity is listed as 100dB 2.83V/1m. FYI 2.83V at 4 ohms is 2W. So consider the Sensitivity 97dB/1W.

The Sensitivity is 1dB higher than the S18. This cab will play lower than the S18 if you don't use the INFRA integrator.
 
FWIW I got one of these on order and am patiently awaiting delivery. I used to own a pair in the deep red but sold them in my quest for lighter and smaller boxes. I will eventually buy a second and have a pair. I just can't get away from the thickness these 15L's provide, and two of them is mind blowing. They produce a fundamental E like no other cab I have played. There is no free lunch and sometimes you just gotta suck it up and go with the ceramics.

View attachment 4365699
Yeah, I'd love to run a pair of these.
They are so efficient, it really opens up the list of amps you could use with them (including low-watt tube amps).
One of B150 Bass Head – Shaw Audio <= these would be sweet!
 
Yeah, I'd love to run a pair of these.
They are so efficient, it really opens up the list of amps you could use with them (including low-watt tube amps).
One of B150 Bass Head – Shaw Audio <= these would be sweet!
Good point about the efficiency. You are so right! I used to run the pair with my Walkabout, no complaints here.
 
Can someone just tell me what to buy, please :D

Get a Demeter VTBP-M-800D amp. It will give you a tone in the same neighborhood, but in a much better package, IMO. Add couple of Bag End S-15Ds, and you'll be blasting planets.

Or consider a Mesa Subway 2x15. Weighs appreciably less than the 2x10 you are considering.

BTW, I fully agree that the Phil sound is going to be best achieved by flats played with a pick. Much more impactful than the rig choice.

demeter_minnie_web-228x228.jpg

S15-d1.jpg
 
Appreciate your input. I went to the Bag End HQ last week and played through several and for some reason their 1x15 doesn't sound good to me, sounds too mid rangey. I played the 2x10 and 1x18 setup and it was absolutely perfect! I'm shopping these cabs used and many of the used items online don't have the powered amps included.

Do you know what power amp would work for both cabs if I end up with the non-powered amps?
That midrange sound you are hearing is why they are so good in a mix. It also may be because you ear is used to scooped sound or bass-hyped DJ and live sound setups.

Two stacked Bag End 15’s fills out the bass frequencies just perfectly. Any gig where you need more will be filled by the PA with your DI.
 

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