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Band image matters

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#82
Wandering Bass said:
This is not about the politics as such, but rather about presenting as a business, so I'll try to generalize the political bits so the Mods don't have to strike me with lightning. And yes, I do use too many words.

We've pulled together a workable group out of the ashes of two others. Classic rock with danceable songs from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's mixed in. The music is solid, and everyone is stepping up and doing their part. That's refreshing. We have our first gig booked a few weeks from now, and several others after that.

Because of when practices are scheduled I have to be very task-focused. I get in, play through the songs, and get out. No hanging out, no socializing. I really didn't get to know them as people until we had a couple of months of practice in. Here's the issue -- while setting up our online presence I've discovered that two of the members (drummer and second guitarist) are political extremists. No, probably more extreme than whomever you just thought of.

1 -- Social media. The both have very active personal presences on social media, posting, liking, and sharing things that are often outright fake, usually threatening towards some group, and never business appropriate. They belong to online groups that I can't name because it would violate forum rules. In short, they favor armed rebellion to remove the "undesirables" from "their" county. I have asked that they create secondary accounts with a more professional, audience-friendly presentation for promoting band events and whatever, but they have both refused.

2 -- Stage image. Disclaimer -- I'm a black on black kind of guy. Regardless of the type of gig I'm wearing black pants, black shoes, black button down. The style of the venue dictates tucked vs untucked, or maybe even unbuttoned over a (black) t-shirt. I get that others like to bring some color to the stage and I'm not opposed to it at all. Both of these guys are into wearing regional "pride" shirts that contain imagery that is politically or culturally offensive to many people. I've explained that these are not appropriate given that we perform in front of mixed audiences. Why piss off your customers? They bang on about freedom to wear what they want, and hey it's rock and roll so screw anyone who doesn't get it.

I've tried having the calm discussion about band image being a big part of marketing and securing gigs. I've suggested maybe they can wear Harley Davidson shirts, what's more rock and roll than that? They insist they are being discriminated against and won't bend.

I know what the answer is -- I'm not a good fit for this band, leave. I'm struggling with it, because I have time in, the music is coming together and I want to get back on stage. Anyone have any ideas as to how to work this out?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've tried and the only recourse os to LEAVE! In my world, if I'm not having fun, I leave... While I'm personally pretty active 'socially' if they're that polarized, LEAVE!

If they only want gigs to promote their views etc. and you are okay with that, stay... Personally, I wouldn't.

Good luck brother, and if they start wearing white sheets... drool RUN!
 
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#84
pigpen1 said:
I dunno, it goes both ways on this. I wouldn't play with these skinhead wanna-bees either, but as I've made the transition from an uber-liberal left-winger in my 20's to a right-leaning independent in my 30's, I've personally experienced more intolerance of viewpoints from the left than I ever did from the right. Having said that I would have quit this band a long time ago. I don't want that association.
Click to expand...

Welp, I wasn't commenting on the right or the left in particular. It was more about people who are so entrenched in a narrow political paradigm, they tend to want to silence anyone who disagrees.
 
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#85
Wandering Bass said:
In short, they favor armed rebellion to remove the "undesirables" from "their" county.
Click to expand...


Woah....enough said.....this potentially goes beyond music at that point. Whether you agree with them politically, socially...whatever. Not for us to judge. But their online presence can now be tied to YOU. Be smart, find others
 
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#86
My personal barriers - choose your own accordingly.

There's politics (which I like to argue about on the internet but not in polite company), there's opposing viewpoints (opinions are like ###, I don't want to show you mine), but then there's hate.

Discussion and even arguments have their place in a band, I can can 'get' people even if I think their opinion is off base. We all come from different places and the journey that got you to arrive at your opinion is different than the one that got me to mine.

However, hate is right out.

It sucks to find this out now, but I'd bail. You're condoning it by proxy, and further, if you gig with these guys, the internet is forever and your image standing alongside them will be recorded in perpetuity. I can almost assure you they share photos of their band with like-minded buddies and your smiling face is going to be right there. For all time.
 
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#90
Wandering Bass said:
This is not about the politics as such, but rather about presenting as a business, so I'll try to generalize the political bits so the Mods don't have to strike me with lightning. And yes, I do use too many words.

We've pulled together a workable group out of the ashes of two others. Classic rock with danceable songs from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's mixed in. The music is solid, and everyone is stepping up and doing their part. That's refreshing. We have our first gig booked a few weeks from now, and several others after that.

Because of when practices are scheduled I have to be very task-focused. I get in, play through the songs, and get out. No hanging out, no socializing. I really didn't get to know them as people until we had a couple of months of practice in. Here's the issue -- while setting up our online presence I've discovered that two of the members (drummer and second guitarist) are political extremists. No, probably more extreme than whomever you just thought of.

1 -- Social media. The both have very active personal presences on social media, posting, liking, and sharing things that are often outright fake, usually threatening towards some group, and never business appropriate. They belong to online groups that I can't name because it would violate forum rules. In short, they favor armed rebellion to remove the "undesirables" from "their" county. I have asked that they create secondary accounts with a more professional, audience-friendly presentation for promoting band events and whatever, but they have both refused.

2 -- Stage image. Disclaimer -- I'm a black on black kind of guy. Regardless of the type of gig I'm wearing black pants, black shoes, black button down. The style of the venue dictates tucked vs untucked, or maybe even unbuttoned over a (black) t-shirt. I get that others like to bring some color to the stage and I'm not opposed to it at all. Both of these guys are into wearing regional "pride" shirts that contain imagery that is politically or culturally offensive to many people. I've explained that these are not appropriate given that we perform in front of mixed audiences. Why piss off your customers? They bang on about freedom to wear what they want, and hey it's rock and roll so screw anyone who doesn't get it.

I've tried having the calm discussion about band image being a big part of marketing and securing gigs. I've suggested maybe they can wear Harley Davidson shirts, what's more rock and roll than that? They insist they are being discriminated against and won't bend.

I know what the answer is -- I'm not a good fit for this band, leave. I'm struggling with it, because I have time in, the music is coming together and I want to get back on stage. Anyone have any ideas as to how to work this out?
Click to expand...

You've got two guys who think they can do what ever they want and if you don't like it, tuff. Nothing good will come of this with these two, you can't change them. Leave.
 
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#91
A man is known by the company he keeps.

Like my grandmother used to say, show me who the people you associate with are and I'll tell you who you are.

That's the way the world works. Maybe in your mind you keep those issues completely separate from being in the same band with these guys. But the rest of the world isn't going to go through the same rationalizations and mental gymnastics as you are.

Minor point: if either of these guys ever decide to go beyond rhetoric and do something more, shall we say "active" to further "promote" their personal beliefs, then you're going to fall under the heading of "known associate" when the authorities come calling. And they will if that ever happens.

Don't know if you've ever had a chat with the Feds when they're "just trying to clear up a few things" about an associate or friend of yours they’re investigating. But it's not a pleasant experience. Trust me on that.

Minor point: bear in mind it's a criminal offense to lie to the Feds in the course of an interview with them. And what constitutes "lying" to them in an interview is pretty broadly defined and open to wide interpretation. Saying something as innocuously innocent as you haven't talked to somebody in awhile and then remembering you spoke to them briefly about a rescheduled practice time the previous week can be enough to land you in hot water.
 
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#92
Definitely confront these bandmates. If they can't separate their personal views from a positive (or at least neutral) image of the band you're in with them, there's no way that they'll be able to keep their views to themselves at a gig after a few drinks. At best they will alienate some potential fans (and maybe even venues!) from your group and at worst they could get into an altercation with patrons of the bar (which definitely won't end well).

I've played with some musicians that have very different views on issues than I do, but for the most part we were able to avoid any unnecessary confrontations stemming from the clashing of our viewpoints while playing together onstage and traveling on the road. It seems the ones who can't put their viewpoints aside in favor of putting on a good show, promoting a healthy image of a band and surviving together on the road are the ones that soon find themselves blacklisted amongst their respective musical community.
 
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#94
Kevan Campbell said:
Definitely confront these bandmates. If they can't separate their personal views from a positive (or at least neutral) image of the band you're in with them, there's no way that they'll be able to keep their views to themselves at a gig after a few drinks.
Click to expand...

This.

If they're already getting confrontational with a bandmate over this you can rest assured they're going to be perfectly happy getting into a fight with a patron or management over it at a venue.

I'm always personally amused when people stay with the freedom of speech thing. because you don't really have any if you're in a private place of business - and especially if you're hired to work there. And there's plenty of legal precedent that says you don't despite what all the amateur and "I speak for the common man" self- appointed "attorneys" seem to think.

There's also such things as: hate speech, provocation, fighting words, disorderly conduct, and incitement. Those things put a big cramp in freedom of speech as far as the actual laws are concerned.
 
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#97
My band is as much about friendship and character as anything else. Ther
GroovyBaby said:
This thread is actually refreshing. Sometimes it seems like the world has gone crazy but this thread is full of reason, moderation, and tolerance. Thank you for that.
Click to expand...

I came back to this several hours after the thread was started and can't believe it hasn't been locked. Good on us.
 
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#98
40Hz said:
There's also such things as: hate speech, provocation, fighting words, disorderly conduct, and incitement. Those things put a big cramp in freedom of speech as far as the actual laws are concerned.
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as hate speech in the law. You can hate all you want and not go to jail. You can’t expect me to play bass for you, though.

I think we need a lot more political tolerance in the US. Too many people breaking up friendships—or trying to get others fired—because of how someone voted. It’s oppressive. But these guys are beyond anything I’d be able to take even if they weren’t advertising at gigs.
 
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