Banished to the DI Zone

[jnewmark]

@agedhorse @honeyiscool
Let's contextualize this scenario. If you have horns or acoustic instruments being supported by a Ampeg 810, something's gone wrong. In a situation like that the more realistic setup would be a something much smaller.
At the same time, in a situation where you would be more likely to see a 810, you would have double 412 stacks running full bore. Wouldn't the exact same bleed problem exist with both? Yes a guitar has less low end, but a fuzzed out 6 string in C or B is still dumping some pretty woofy lows into the room, would it?

Unfortunately, sometimes it doesn't work out like that when provided backline. I played in a band with a 3 piece horn section, and a lead singer who occasionally played a Martin. More times than not, an SVT/810 was my backline. I tamed it as much as I could, but, as Mick said, you can't always get what you want.

 

[agedhorse]

@agedhorse @honeyiscool
Let's contextualize this scenario. If you have horns or acoustic instruments being supported by a Ampeg 810, something's gone wrong. In a situation like that the more realistic setup would be a something much smaller.
At the same time, in a situation where you would be more likely to see a 810, you would have double 412 stacks running full bore. Wouldn't the exact same bleed problem exist with both? Yes a guitar has less low end, but a fuzzed out 6 string in C or B is still dumping some pretty woofy lows into the room, would it?

Not necessarily. Say Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, Chicago, Tower of Power, Led Zep, Stones, Eagles. All have combined acoustic and big electric

Yes, same can apply to a detuned gtr, especially going for the chunk-chunk tone, for example George Lynch.

 

[socialleper]

especially going for the chunk-chunk tone, for example George Lynch.

Uh...sure...George Lynch
Everyone's context is different I guess.

 

[agedhorse]

Uh...sure...George Lynch
Everyone's context is different I guess.

Since you have never stood on stage with George, stood in front of his rig with him playing, with speakers I helped design, you might consider my perspective and context is indeed different than yours. It's deep and chunky yet tight (the main goal of the G-Flex design).

 

[Wasnex]

Do you mean the load impedance needs to be 1meg or higher, or maximum 1meg for the underwood?

Min 1 Meg. I always thought 10 Meg was the gold standard for unbuffered piezos, but @agedhorse and @lowfreqgeek have convinced me that is too high.

Relevant posts on page 6: How might I play two basses through the same cabinet?

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I hate to do this, but that depends doesn't it?
Someone chugging away on root quarter notes probably doesn't need anything too special. However, if the bass player is a little more expressive, or if the whole "mix" requires the bass to sound a certain way, what they are doing is important.
I've never viewed the bass as subservient to the other instruments. It is a wholly vested equal partner in the sonic presentation of the band.

I was not suggesting that bass is subordinate. I'm sorry if it came across like that.

My inquiry was more along the lines of asking if a bass player's particular insistence on getting a certain sound was more important to the bass player than to anyone else? I guess I could rephrase that to ask... Is it more important to the bass player than it is to the song? If the song, (or anyone else for that matter) suffers because a bass player is more interested in how he sounds to himself than how he sounds to others or within the song, is that really the right approach? Is that what this thread is about, or has drifted into becoming about?

Of course bass players are superior in every way.
And the older I get, the better I used to be.

 

[agedhorse]

Min 1 Meg. I always thought 10 Meg was the gold standard for unbuffered piezos, but @agedhorse and @lowfreqgeek have convinced me that is too high.

Relevant posts on page 6: How might I play two basses through the same cabinet?

Note that the smaller Underwood crystals sometimes work better at an impedance higher than 1M, but rarely more than 5M. I would guess that 2M is pretty close. When you use a 10M input, I would think you would find a fair amount of tribo-electric cable noise.

 

[JimChjones]

The other factor one has to consider for the sound guy is troubleshooting and contingency. If the band are running late, their competences and vice versa are unknown to the soundman, all the rest of it, s/he can't be blamed too much for reaching for what they know works. Your own amp DI output may be guaranteed perfect and never generate hum, but would you be happy to guarantee that for every item of equipment of every band that's ever played there? If time is short, and there have been a lot of issues with other bands' equipment lately...

 

[Wasnex]

A Countryman will accept anything from a low impedance source, to an unbuffered piezo transducer without any problems; the low impedance source might be a little noisier by a slight amount. For live sound, it's inconsequential.

The Type-85 is a fine DI. I used one as my main DI for years and would not hesitate to use one again. IMHO the PZDI sounds better and has some nice features that help it stand out as a more useful tool. YMMV.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Wait, I thought what people were complaining about was the bass bleeding into other mics, not other instruments bleeding into the bass mic.

I read it as other instruments bleeding into the bass mic.
I considered that if the bass wasn't mic'd it would still bleed into other instruments that were mic'd.
Then we wouldn't be having this (part of the) conversation.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Cobalt and molybdenum are common alloys added to machine tool cutters and bits. These alloys are excellent for drilling or machining stainless and other hard steels.

But where does the Molybdenum come from? Mined in the US or overseas somewhere?
I believe the concern Dr. Wolfrum had was for the mining of Molybdenum in general.
Otherwise he may have sourced transformers made oversees if it wasn't a matter of where they were made.
Though I did sense what seemed to me to be a bit of patriotism for American made products too.
I could be wrong.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I do.

I had a guy refuse to use the direct out on my sansamp rbi because he said it would cause a hum. I've played that rig in a lot of different places with dodgy wiring and never had it be the reason there is noise in the signal. It was the freaking lights in the theater, and the only way I got rid of it was by soloing the humbucker in my bass. (Also, no hum through my amp in that case)

He still insisted on putting my bass directly into a DI, even though the signal through my sansamp was essentially the same thing. I just said whatever, because I knew the signal through the mains was not really necessary because my amp could easily push the room.

So you're saying the guy didn't finish, top of his class, at sound guy school?

 

[agedhorse]

But where does the Molybdenum come from? Mined in the US or overseas somewhere?
I believe the concern Dr. Wolfrum had was for the mining of Molybdenum in general.
Otherwise he may have sourced transformers made oversees if it wasn't a matter of where they were made.
Though I did sense what seemed to me to be a bit of patriotism for American made products too.
I could be wrong.

The same can be said of just about every product in the entire mining industry.

 

[byacey]

But where does the Molybdenum come from? Mined in the US or overseas somewhere?
I believe the concern Dr. Wolfrum had was for the mining of Molybdenum in general.
Otherwise he may have sourced transformers made oversees if it wasn't a matter of where they were made.
Though I did sense what seemed to me to be a bit of patriotism for American made products too.
I could be wrong.

According to wikipedia, the U.S. is the second largest producer of Molybdenum, China being first.
Cobalt is a different story, with the greatest percentage mined in the Congo by Chinese interests. Apparently Canada has some unexploited reserves, but with the current U.S. / Canada trade relations, I doubt Canada is looking to negotiate on cobalt any time soon.

 

[socialleper]

Since you have never stood on stage with George, stood in front of his rig with him playing, with speakers I helped design, you might consider my perspective and context is indeed different than yours. It's deep and chunky yet tight (the main goal of the G-Flex design).

No, but in terms of tone and style he is a little what people my age would consider light weight. They are more tight and dry, zip through some scales, sort of players. Like Steve Vai or that Batio guy from Nitro. Not really rattle your brain out of your ears riffage sort of players.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

According to wikipedia, the U.S. is the second largest producer of Molybdenum, China being first.
Cobalt is a different story, with the greatest percentage mined in the Congo by Chinese interests. Apparently Canada has some unexploited reserves, but with the current U.S. / Canada trade relations, I doubt Canada is looking to negotiate on cobalt any time soon.

Well OK then. Guess I shouldn’t believe anything I read on the internet.
Thanks for the wiki-p update and setting me straight.

 

[agedhorse]

No, but in terms of tone and style he is a little what people my age would consider light weight. They are more tight and dry, zip through some scales, sort of players. Like Steve Vai or that Batio guy from Nitro. Not really rattle your brain out of your ears riffage sort of players.

Where do you think that style evolved from? Of course they are standing on the shoulders of players like Lynch and of course Metallica. They might be tighter and dryer because they don't need to cover up anything. And standing on stage will rattle your brain, there's a lot more happening down low than you give them credit for.

 

[callofcthulhu]

Why are there two 10 page+ threads on the same topic on the front page?

Sometimes TB feels like the punchline of a joke someone would write if they were to imagine what a forum for bass players would look like.

 

[socialleper]

Where do you think that style evolved from? Of course they are standing on the shoulders of players like Lynch and of course Metallica. They might be tighter and dryer because they don't need to cover up anything. And standing on stage will rattle your brain, there's a lot more happening down low than you give them credit for.

We are starting to veer off on to a totally different but well trod TB path. Suffice to say one could make the argument that everyone is standing on someone else's musical shoulders. We are all just improving the work of a cave man banging rocks together in time.

To the tonal point, unless I missed my guess, I would say that acts like Lynch are tuned to E, Eb, maybe D on a good day. There are entire genres were C is the starting point and it only goes down from there. Whats more, they tend to use fuzz pedals that have all sorts of low end spraying odd and even order harmonics all over the venue. Those guitar players are very close to standard register bass frequencies, and mic'ing them isn't an issue. Or at least not a prohibitive one. It feels like the technology and skill to do it exists, there is just a lack of will or interest.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

We are starting to veer off on to a totally different but well trod TB path. Suffice to say one could make the argument that everyone is standing on someone else's musical shoulders. We are all just improving the work of a cave man banging rocks together in time.

So firing the dummer (caveman banging rocks in time) is firing everybody who plays music?