Banished to the DI Zone

[agedhorse]

So you're saying bassists should expect FOH engineers to be even more tired, and grouchy, moving forward...

I found that everybody was getting grumpier

 

[Wood and Wire]

Cobalt has been available in the US, and is also a byproduct of nickle mining.

Cobalt bass strings are a byproduct of Nickel bass strings?

That's like "buy one, get one free"!

I got to stop using Stainless Steel all the time, I'm getting ripped off!

 

[Stevenk]

The marketing material suggests it was designed specifically for instruments equipped with unbuffered piezo pickups. But it works perfectly with regular passive and active basses as well.

I bought a mint used one for $189 with free shipping off Ebay...$229 New with free shipping
https://www.amazon.com/Radial-PZ-DI-Piezo-optimized-Direct-Box/dp/B00B8KM7KC

I bought the PZDI because I tend to gravitate toward really flexible gear.

I don't own a string bass anymore, but I still have my old Underwood piezo pickup and it needs to loaded with at least 1Meg to sound best. I bought the PZDI just in case, with the knowledge that it will sound great with my passive and active electric basses.

If you like to tinker I think it's a great step up from the J48. But, if extra buttons and knobs confuse you, don't buy it.

Man, this sounds like a combo active/passive box that can DI anything. I currently have 2 j48s, for various bass and your basic teles , strats, typical passive electric guitars. I’ll have to put this on my list for the future.
I have to first get s better midi keyboard controller and upgrade my PC to 32 gigs RAM, not too mention life expenses in general.
This is way cool!
I had picked up a nice, simple, inexpensive M-Audio Keystation midi keyboard, but it’s velocity is pitiful. Recommended this take a look at the nivation or maybe the new keystation. I bought the “new” one six months ago, but they already have another. Maybe that’s why(hah). Anyway, you don’t need to hear about all that.
Goid tip. Thanks!

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

There's more to this I suspect. Cobalt has been available in the US, and is also a byproduct of nickle mining. It's become quite expensive but the amount of cobalt in a small signal transformer is still only pennies.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Yes, I assume there is much more to it than can be conveyed in one page.
To be honest though, I just extracted from what was said in Dr. Wolfrum's story and may have interpreted it incorrectly.
My take was that the Molybdenum was the more critical factor in the makeup of the original transformers and that it did become more Unobtainium than Cobalt.
I'm no expert in metals. I don't even know who's the best expert for metallurgy.

Beyond building the box with the "sister" transformer I had on hand, and in the process finding Dr. Wolfrum's story to be one of interest, I can only inflict self guilt in parroting what I read on the Internet.

Right now my biggest concern with this project is to get some good looking graphics on it. 'Cause you know what they say...?
"They" being me in this case and the telling of it being looks over function. (See my signature.)

I definitely learned a lot from this thread though. Thanks for everyone's contributions.

-edit- And today I learned where the US stands against a list of other countries in Cobalt.

 

[byacey]

The marketing material suggests it was designed specifically for instruments equipped with unbuffered piezo pickups. But it works perfectly with regular passive and active basses as well.

I bought a mint used one for $189 with free shipping off Ebay...$229 New with free shipping
https://www.amazon.com/Radial-PZ-DI-Piezo-optimized-Direct-Box/dp/B00B8KM7KC

I bought the PZDI because I tend to gravitate toward really flexible gear.

I don't own a string bass anymore, but I still have my old Underwood piezo pickup and it needs to loaded with at least 1Meg to sound best. I bought the PZDI just in case, with the knowledge that it will sound great with my passive and active electric basses.

If you like to tinker I think it's a great step up from the J48. But, if extra buttons and knobs confuse you, don't buy it.

Do you mean the load impedance needs to be 1meg or higher, or maximum 1meg for the underwood?

 

[byacey]

Man, this sounds like a combo active/passive box that can DI anything. I currently have 2 j48s, for various bass and your basic teles , strats, typical passive electric guitars. I’ll have to put this on my list for the future.
I have to first get s better midi keyboard controller and upgrade my PC to 32 gigs RAM, not too mention life expenses in general.
This is way cool!
I had picked up a nice, simple, inexpensive M-Audio Keystation midi keyboard, but it’s velocity is pitiful. Recommended this take a look at the nivation or maybe the new keystation. I bought the “new” one six months ago, but they already have another. Maybe that’s why(hah). Anyway, you don’t need to hear about all that.
Goid tip. Thanks!

A Countryman will accept anything from a low impedance source, to an unbuffered piezo transducer without any problems; the low impedance source might be a little noisier by a slight amount. For live sound, it's inconsequential.

 

[honeyiscool]

Cobalt can't be that hard to source if it's in every single Alnico pickup.

 

[byacey]

Cobalt and molybdenum are common alloys added to machine tool cutters and bits. These alloys are excellent for drilling or machining stainless and other hard steels.

 

[socialleper]

Allow me to cut the rope before they run the horse out from under you, by asking...

Is the sound being produced by the bass player a lot more important to the bass player than it is to anyone else?
I get that everyone has a sound in their head that they would like to achieve and some go to great length to achieve that sound.
And that's OK.
But other than special riffs that make or break a song, and bass solos, as long as the bass player is sitting well in the mix, isn't that what's really important?

Hey! Wait! How'd this noose get around my neck? Nice horsey, nice horsey, just stay right here.

I hate to do this, but that depends doesn't it?
Someone chugging away on root quarter notes probably doesn't need anything too special. However, if the bass player is a little more expressive, or if the whole "mix" requires the bass to sound a certain way, what they are doing is important.
I've never viewed the bass as subservient to the other instruments. It is a wholly vested equal partner in the sonic presentation of the band.

 

[socialleper]

I think often this personal view of "My sound" is a security blanket pacifier for the musician. In my experiences, generally the more accomplished the performer, they are less demanding and picky about their stage sound. They know that what the audience hears is far more important than a "perfect" stage sound, and concessions are made if it enhances what the audience hears.

Sure.
SRV didn't have a "sound." Neither does Zack Wylde, Slash, or Jeff Beck, right? They are more than happy to use whatever equipment is laying about. Geddy Lee or Billy Sheehan don't have a particular tone.
Come on now.
Cover bands or hired guns probably don't care as much. Let's not pretend that the musicians they are covering or playing for don't have carefully crafted tones that are a specific piece of their "brand."

 

[socialleper]

Bass does not put out a strong audible signal, relatively speaking, and the signals that bleed into a bass mic are easier to amplify than the bass signal itself.

Wait, I thought what people were complaining about was the bass bleeding into other mics, not other instruments bleeding into the bass mic.

 

[honeyiscool]

I hate to do this, but that depends doesn't it?
Someone chugging away on root quarter notes probably doesn't need anything too special. However, if the bass player is a little more expressive, or if the whole "mix" requires the bass to sound a certain way, what they are doing is important.
I've never viewed the bass as subservient to the other instruments. It is a wholly vested equal partner in the sonic presentation of the band.

A serviceable DI (say, a JDI) often costs more than a serviceable mic (say, an Audix D4), though, and never mind people using high end DIs, which plenty of people do. Use of a DI doesn't mean that bass is subservient. And it honestly doesn't even mean that it sounds less like the amp at the bassist's perspective, either.

I wonder if anybody would continue to argue for mics always being better and more accurate in a mix than DI if people had even a decent quality board that they could record multitrack out of**. Set up one channel with pre-EQ DI and put all the compression and EQ you'd apply, and then set up another channel from the mic, record both. Play with all the instruments going on, not just the bass by itself. See if you can make the mic mix sound better and more accurate.

** Yes, I acknowledge that it's hard to find good reasonably sized priced that can do this.

 

[agedhorse]

Wait, I thought what people were complaining about was the bass bleeding into other mics, not other mics bleeding into the bass mic.

It can happen both ways. The answer is "it depends"

 

[theinfamous]

I don't know a single sound guy that wouldn't at least try your DI if you brought one with you.

I do.

I had a guy refuse to use the direct out on my sansamp rbi because he said it would cause a hum. I've played that rig in a lot of different places with dodgy wiring and never had it be the reason there is noise in the signal. It was the freaking lights in the theater, and the only way I got rid of it was by soloing the humbucker in my bass. (Also, no hum through my amp in that case)

He still insisted on putting my bass directly into a DI, even though the signal through my sansamp was essentially the same thing. I just said whatever, because I knew the signal through the mains was not really necessary because my amp could easily push the room.

 

[honeyiscool]

Wait, I thought what people were complaining about was the bass bleeding into other mics, not other mics bleeding into the bass mic.

Bass bleeding into other mics is usually not a problem for me because the only mic you wouldn't HPF on a busy stage is the bass drum mic, and bass drums are so loud that any bleed is not an issue, and even if it were, you could gate it.

Things bleeding into the bass mic is often a problem.

 

[agedhorse]

Bass bleeding into other mics is usually not a problem for me because the only mic you wouldn't HPF on a busy stage is the bass drum mic, and bass drums are so loud that any bleed is not an issue, and even if it were, you could gate it.

Things bleeding into the bass mic is often a problem.

Sometimes it is, because even if the other mics are highpassed at 80Hz, there's still plenty of >80Hz content coming out of the bass rig.

 

[honeyiscool]

Sometimes it is, because even if the other mics are highpassed at 80Hz, there's still plenty of >80Hz content coming out of the bass rig.

Fair point. Plus, I'd imagine if you have, say, a 810 blasting and, say, a lot of horn players, sometimes you can't really move people as well as you'd like, and a mic might end up right in the path of the 810.

 

[agedhorse]

Fair point. Plus, I'd imagine if you have, say, a 810 blasting and, say, a lot of horn players, sometimes you can't really move people as well as you'd like, and a mic might end up right in the path of the 810.

Unfortunately, more often than not.

There's also situations where there's a mic'd piano (rough when volumes climb), small percussion, and acoustic instruments on the front line that might be mic'd.

 

[honeyiscool]

Unfortunately, more often than not.

There's also situations where there's a mic'd piano (rough when volumes climb), small percussion, and acoustic instruments on the front line that might be mic'd.

Yeah, I have a tendency to think of all music in terms of the music I play or listen to, and that's really why I should be careful with making assumptions. In your average rock 4 or 5-piece in a decent sized stage, bass mic bleed is usually not much of an issue, but as you start changing it up, etc.

I've seen people try to play mic'd acoustic instruments with rock bands on tiny stages, and it's like... I know that pickups don't always sound good, but unless you like no sound instead of some sound...

 

[socialleper]

@agedhorse @honeyiscool
Let's contextualize this scenario. If you have horns or acoustic instruments being supported by a Ampeg 810, something's gone wrong. In a situation like that the more realistic setup would be a something much smaller.
At the same time, in a situation where you would be more likely to see a 810, you would have double 412 stacks running full bore. Wouldn't the exact same bleed problem exist with both? Yes a guitar has less low end, but a fuzzed out 6 string in C or B is still dumping some pretty woofy lows into the room, would it?