Banished to the DI Zone

[J.Wolf]

I don't know...I would say you have made some valuable contributions. Why not move on and make more.

Because I take issue with condescension at the expense of a varied set of experiences and viewpoints.

And while I have deference to those with lots of hours and miles, I think others have valuable information to share.

 

[micguy]

FYI...Radial PZDI is pretty much a J48 with an expanded feature set including switchable input impedance (220K, 1Meg, 10Meg), variable HPF (5Hz-500Hz), buffered/parallel thru (switchable), LPF (switchable at 3kHz), etc.
PZ-DI - Radial Engineering

Good to know. Those crazy West coast Canadians keep at it, don't they? And.....I may have learned something from someone younger than me. ;-)

 

[J.Wolf]

But back on topic, provided that monitors are of decent quality and the soundman is not a caveman, a good tube DI like a sonic farm, Arkham, Teagarden fat boy, or reddi will make a world of difference in an amp less setting. That was my only point, prior to that rabbit hole.

 

[JimmyM]

Because I take issue with condescension at the expense of a varied set of experiences and viewpoints.

And while I have deference to those with lots of hours and miles, I think others have valuable information to share. And it’s condescending and limits the value of the larger conversation.

Yeah, I've had people try that on me, too. I just plain don't care. I defer to people who have more expertise about a subject than me, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, and I stand my ground when I think I have just as much or more to offer as anyone else on a particular topic.

That said, even though Andy and I don't see eye to eye on everything, I do like and respect him very much. If he was running sound for me, I'd probably give him carte blanche. It's the soundfolks who AREN'T as on top of things as Andy I'm more worried about

 

[Mvilmany]

I like DI.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Agreed, this is a bit of a dodge. Drums and guitars are mic'ed live and they can be set up in 10 minutes between bands. It isn't rocket science. A studio might be different, but live, everyone is getting the quick version of a set up.

That's not true, either. Takes a few seconds more to set up a mic and a stand than a DI. Then you put the mic in the middle of a cone and you're done.

Not remotely my experience as far as miking bass cabs, it’s a touchier process than miking a guitar cab, granted I do it more often in a studio. Lets explore this puzzling logic. you want “your tone,” yet you’re trusting a sound guy to set up the mic of his choosing, by eye? Assuming pointing a mic (which mic? Sm57? D112? Both can give great results but they’re not the same) in the center of a cone (whatabout the tweeter if so equipped? Second mic for that lol?) is going to yield a great tone, isn’t necessarily true, and at any rate, you’re introducing more variables and of course some level of bleed into a live situation. I will concede that a properly miked bass cab is the best possible situation, but will not agree it’s quick or easy. Another logical conundrum: If it really led to better results and was just as easy... why wouldn’t more sound guys do it?

I get it, you guys like miking cabs, you’re free to continue shaking your fists at lazy sound guys, meanwhile, I’ll be sending sound guys the exact tones I’ve shaped through high quality DI’s with little to no resistance. YMMV...

 

[Wasnex]

But back on topic, provided that monitors are of decent quality and the soundman is not a caveman, a good tube DI like a sonic farm, Arkham, Teagarden fat boy, or reddi will make a world of difference in an amp less setting. That was my only point, prior to that rabbit hole.

Never used a Sonic Farm 2DI4, but I like what I hear in the videos I have listened to...very articulate, focused, and clean. Many people don't consider these qualities "tubey," but obviously they can be.

If I were going ampless on a regular basis, I would probably opt for a preamp so I had the ability to dial in tone directly instead of trying to talk the monitor tech through it. This contradicts my normal philosophy of sending a pre DI signal to the board, but I tend to adapt to circumstances. I have been burned by monitor techs changing levels and EQ mid show, when I used a regular DI and went ampless in the past.

 

[J.Wolf]

Yeah, I've had people try that on me, too. I just plain don't care. I defer to people who have more expertise about a subject than me, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, and I stand my ground when I think I have just as much or more to offer as anyone else on a particular topic.

That said, even though Andy and I don't see eye to eye on everything, I do like and respect him very much. If he was running sound for me, I'd probably give him carte blanche. It's the soundfolks who AREN'T as on top of things as Andy I'm more worried about

I agree with everything you've written here Jimmy. And I also have a lot of respect for Andy's technical work on amp design, and apparently his long track record working with sound reinforcement with thousands of acts. And none of that makes it appropriate to be condescending to other peoples experiences/opinions, IMO. There's no lack of deference, I just dont think anyone has the right to invalidate someones opinions on the basis of their own experience alone, and not on the basis of being objectively wrong about something.

I would like to think this is a place where everyones opinions are valid and useful. Inexperienced players struggle with and have challenges that more experienced players don't. And unless this site is a resource for seasoned pro's only, voicing those challenges serves the users with similar challenges. I'm somewhere in the middle I suppose, and I like to think I have something offer, even though I'm 20 years and 20,000 miles shy of a valid opinion as it would seem.

So yeah, make points without belittling others, in a nutshell. Nothing new, just another thread derail. And on that note.. /off topic.

 

[J.Wolf]

Never used a Sonic Farm 2DI4, but I like what I hear in the videos I have listened to...very articulate, focused, and clean. Many people don't consider these qualities "tubey," but obviously they can be.

If I were going ampless on a regular basis, I would probably opt for a preamp so I had the ability to dial in tone directly instead of trying to talk the monitor tech through it. This contradicts my normal philosophy of sending a pre DI signal to the board, but I tend to adapt to circumstances. I have been burned by monitor techs changing levels and EQ mid show, when I used a regular DI and went ampless in the past.

I have been using one for about 5 years. It is not tubey in the traditional sense, but it has a great weight and 3d nature to it, and some hair/balls in pentode mode. But its more like a mic preamp/channel strip to my ears than a bass preamp. I find it to split the difference beautifully. Never used it in the studio or on stage and been disappointed with the results.

Just DON'T hit that pentode/triode button without the unit muted. Thats an unfortunate mistake you only make once. But it keeps me from letting others use it on stage. Enough volume going to your cabs and I suspect the giant pop that ensues would be a driver killer.

 

[brianrost]

A Reddi* is an active DI - it isn't always about being cheap.

I agree 100%, the earliest active DIs like the Countryman (still well loved after over 40 years!) were much more expensive. It's the cheap actives that are everywhere I meant...I've been handed a Behringer many times. I'd rather have a decent passive DI than a lousy active one.

 

[socialleper]

In my experience it takes a bit more than 10 minutes to mic drums and guitar if you want to do it well. Just setting up the mics takes longer than 10 minutes if you do the full kit.

Again, I think we are living in separate realities. Here's how things go here:
The venue books 5-6 bands to play. The headliner gets a sound check, everyone else gets a line check as they set up. The break between bands is approx 15 minutes. Some venues have backline equipment the supporting bands to use, some don't. In 15 minutes the previous band has to tear down their gear and GTFO while the next band is loading their gear on stage. The mics are left on the stands and just moved around as need be. As each instrument comes together, the sound guy does a quick line check.
That's it. Rinse repeat.
That's small bars, 2nd tier clubs, and even the big Sunset Blvd clubs. Get on, play for 30-45 minutes, get off, STFU. All for no pay, the venue might take a cut of your merch sales, and sometimes P-2-P.

 

[socialleper]

I’m 40 with 20 years of professional experience, but apparently that may not be enough to have a credible opinion.

When I’m 60, you’ll be 80. So I’ll have a credible opinion by then. But then you guys will be 80 and have 20 years on me. So my insights will come up short again I suppose. Lol

I put no stock in age. People most assuredly aren't wine.

 

[JimmyM]

Not remotely my experience as far as miking bass cabs, it’s a touchier process than miking a guitar cab, granted I do it more often in a studio. Lets explore this puzzling logic. you want “your tone,” yet you’re trusting a sound guy to set up the mic of his choosing, by eye? Assuming pointing a mic (which mic? Sm57? D112? Both can give great results but they’re not the same) in the center of a cone (whatabout the tweeter if so equipped? Second mic for that lol?) is going to yield a great tone, isn’t necessarily true, and at any rate, you’re introducing more variables and of course some level of bleed into a live situation. I will concede that a properly miked bass cab is the best possible situation, but will not agree it’s quick or easy. Another logical conundrum: If it really led to better results and was just as easy... why wouldn’t more sound guys do it?

I get it, you guys like miking cabs, you’re free to continue shaking your fists at lazy sound guys, meanwhile, I’ll be sending sound guys the exact tones I’ve shaped through high quality DI’s with little to no resistance. YMMV...

Wish I could find a roll eyes emoji on my phone.

The mic and stand I always brought was fine, and any sound tech worth a crap should already know what works on a cab in case I don't have mine. I usually don't use tweeters and most who do like those freqs prefer a DI anyway. And the idea that my cab mic is going to be the one mic out of the 10-15 mics on our stage that screws up the mix is ludicrous. Anyway, takes about a minute longer than a DI, but if you want to grossly complicate it over unnecessary hand wringing, be my guest.

 

[socialleper]

Not remotely my experience as far as miking bass cabs, it’s a touchier process than miking a guitar cab, granted I do it more often in a studio. Lets explore this puzzling logic. you want “your tone,” yet you’re trusting a sound guy to set up the mic of his choosing, by eye? Assuming pointing a mic (which mic? Sm57? D112? Both can give great results but they’re not the same) in the center of a cone (whatabout the tweeter if so equipped? Second mic for that lol?) is going to yield a great tone, isn’t necessarily true, and at any rate, you’re introducing more variables and of course some level of bleed into a live situation. I will concede that a properly miked bass cab is the best possible situation, but will not agree it’s quick or easy. Another logical conundrum: If it really led to better results and was just as easy... why wouldn’t more sound guys do it?

I get it, you guys like miking cabs, you’re free to continue shaking your fists at lazy sound guys, meanwhile, I’ll be sending sound guys the exact tones I’ve shaped through high quality DI’s with little to no resistance. YMMV...

Maybe it is my lack of experience as a "sound guy" but from where I'm standing it just strikes me as weird that drums and guitars can be mic'ed quickly in a live situation all the time, but somehow mic'ing a bass requires a masters degree and a slide rule to figure out.
Then there is the opposite in the studio. Hours can be spent mic'ing drums and guitar to create a life altering sonic portrait of the instrument. But if I want to get a bass cab mic'ed we need to call the guys from JPL and burn a day of tracking time.

 

[Wasnex]

Again, I think we are living in separate realities. Here's how things go here:
The venue books 5-6 bands to play. The headliner gets a sound check, everyone else gets a line check as they set up. The break between bands is approx 15 minutes. Some venues have backline equipment the supporting bands to use, some don't. In 15 minutes the previous band has to tear down their gear and GTFO while the next band is loading their gear on stage. The mics are left on the stands and just moved around as need be. As each instrument comes together, the sound guy does a quick line check.
That's it. Rinse repeat.
That's small bars, 2nd tier clubs, and even the big Sunset Blvd clubs. Get on, play for 30-45 minutes, get off, STFU. All for no pay, the venue might take a cut of your merch sales, and sometimes P-2-P.

I am talking about the time it takes to set up mics. You are talking about the time it takes to changeover from one band to another.

Been there done that. Been on both sides of the mixing console. Here is my experience:

It takes more than 10 minutes to initially set up the mics. Once the mics are setup (with sufficient motivation and help) another band can move into position in 15 minutes and use the same equipment. With any luck they may even get a quick sound check, but the audio tech(s) will continue to spend a considerable time making corrective EQ and head amp gain changes well into the set.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Maybe it is my lack of experience as a "sound guy" but from where I'm standing it just strikes me as weird that drums and guitars can be mic'ed quickly in a live situation all the time, but somehow mic'ing a bass requires a masters degree and a slide rule to figure out.
Then there is the opposite in the studio. Hours can be spent mic'ing drums and guitar to create a life altering sonic portrait of the instrument. But if I want to get a bass cab mic'ed we need to call the guys from JPL and burn a day of tracking time.

As bass players, we do have to put up with a bit of inferiority, but we do get to make up for it by being better looking.

 

[Wasnex]

Maybe it is my lack of experience as a "sound guy" but from where I'm standing it just strikes me as weird that drums and guitars can be mic'ed quickly in a live situation all the time, but somehow mic'ing a bass requires a masters degree and a slide rule to figure out.

Putting the mic up is easy. Making bass sound good indoors in a live environment is not. Maybe you should try running sound, so you have a better understand of the other side of the equation. You will probably find the experience quite humbling. Unfortunately you don't generally get to optimize everything...or anything for that matter. Rather, it's about trying to figure out a workable compromise.

Hours can be spent mic'ing drums and guitar to create a life altering sonic portrait of the instrument. But if I want to get a bass cab mic'ed we need to call the guys from JPL and burn a day of tracking time.

Again putting up a mic is easy, but getting a great sound takes a bit more time and effort. The one time a mic was used on my rig in the studio, about 45 minutes was spent on the mic and 15 minutes spent on the DI and syncing the two signals.

If your rig is essential to your sound and you are paying the studio, then specify the bass amp will be mic'ed in the contract. There will be no argument. If you want it, insist upon it, and be prepared to pay for it. It's really as simple as that.

 

[JimmyM]

Putting the mic up is easy. Making bass sound good indoors in a live environment is not. Maybe you should try running sound, so you have a better understand of the other side of the equation. You will probably find the experience quite humbling. Unfortunately you don't generally get to optimize everything...or anything for that matter. Rather, it's about trying to figure out a workable compromise.




Again putting up a mic is easy, but getting a great sound takes a bit more time and effort. The one time a mic was used on my rig in the studio, about 45 minutes was spent on the mic and 15 minutes spent on the DI and syncing the two signals.

If your rig is essential to your sound and you are paying the studio, then specify the bass amp will be mic'ed in the contract. There will be no argument. If you want it, insist upon it, and be prepared to pay for it. It's really as simple as that.

I have used mic'ed cabs in studios and live environments ranging from tiny clubs to arenas, and the idea that it takes a lot longer to get a sound is absolute bunk. Not the least bit true. At all.

 

[CRich0205]

In my opinion the biggest thing is what kind of band are you playing in. If you are a cover/corporate event band I’m sure the DI and in ears are a great easy setup. But if you play original rock/alt/metal whatever core you may want your amp and can as a big part of your tone. When my original band plays I want my svt and 810 miced. My VTDI sounds similar but it’s not the same. If I want to sound like a generic bass tone
Out front then here’s a cheap direct box. But the tone from the speaker can is a big part of my bands sound. I use fuzz and OD so I don’t care for the extra clean fizz off a DI.

 

[socialleper]

Making bass sound good indoors in a live environment is not.

What I'm trying to drill down to is why is bass specifically such a nightmare compared to the other typical instruments in a rock band. Don't drums have more in terms of frequency dynamics, bleed, and high SPL?
Isn't a guitar that swings from clean chorus plucking to fire breathing distortion more to try to capture than a bass that stays at the same levels through out?