Banished to the DI Zone

[Old Garage-Bander]

Bass just tends to sound better through a DI - much more controlled bottom end. Very difficult to capture those low frequencies accurately through any microphone. I'm not an engineer but the guy who produces my band swears by DI - gives him a better quality signal to deal with and then adds in a little bit of the amp and cab for flavour.

I may get lynched for this as well, but when you're playing through big house systems, I'm not convinced a unique bass tone is quite as identifiable as the guitar tone. FOH likely want something as straighforward as possible with as little bleed as possible - hence so many bands going ampless. That aside, I'm not sure why so many bassists have this conception that they can't get "their" sound with DI. Complete nonsense.

FWIW, I always used to be a bit wary of not having any of my amp sound out front, and for most gigs I still have a mic on the cab but that's always backed up by my Countryman DI box and in some instances I go DI only. I'd never ever be overly precious about my setup if I thought it would compromise the sound out front and the show - for me, that's why people come to see the band.

Allow me to cut the rope before they run the horse out from under you, by asking...

Is the sound being produced by the bass player a lot more important to the bass player than it is to anyone else?
I get that everyone has a sound in their head that they would like to achieve and some go to great length to achieve that sound.
And that's OK.
But other than special riffs that make or break a song, and bass solos, as long as the bass player is sitting well in the mix, isn't that what's really important?

Hey! Wait! How'd this noose get around my neck? Nice horsey, nice horsey, just stay right here.

 

[J.Wolf]

part of the confusion here may be that there are two factors to mic'ing a cab: placing the mic, and dialing in the signal that results. Putting up a mic takes as long as it takes to run a cable and get the mic stand in front of a driver. dialing the signal can take a lot longer, depending on the preferences of the player and the engineer, and the band mix. But "putting up a mic" is pretty durn quick.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Wish I could find a roll eyes emoji on my phone.

The mic and stand I always brought was fine, and any sound tech worth a crap should already know what works on a cab in case I don't have mine. I usually don't use tweeters and most who do like those freqs prefer a DI anyway. And the idea that my cab mic is going to be the one mic out of the 10-15 mics on our stage that screws up the mix is ludicrous. Anyway, takes about a minute longer than a DI, but if you want to grossly complicate it over unnecessary hand wringing, be my guest.

So you bring your own mic, and know where you like to mic your cab. Essentially the same as myself sending my settings on my various preamps, DIs, etc.

Do you really get resistance from sound guys when you bring your own mic? Seems a little silly, but again, there is bleed to worry about, and good sound guys actually have a lot more to worry about than lazy ones, because they actually care. Bleed is a considerable issue when dealing with a low energy instrument like bass, since the tinny bled signals are inherently easier to amplify than the low mids we want from bass guitar. Will one bass mic ruin a mix? Probably not. Will it make it at least slightly harder to mix? Almost certainly.

I’ve been on both sides of the board, and mitigating risk is a big part of being a sound guy. The fewer variables to worry about the better. If I’m running sound at a good club, with high-quality acts, and somebody like you rolls in with your cab and Mic ready to go for a 4 hour set, I’m inclined to trust you. In a quick change showcase or festival situation, I’m much less inclined to leave my comfort zone, or let the possibility of something going wrong enter into my already difficult job.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Unobtainium?

Yep at least in the US.
I imagine there are other counties that pay child labor next to nothing to dig it up for them.
I believe this was at least a part of Dr. Wolfrum's objection to sourcing transformers from other places.
Socially and environmentally conscious it seems. But IDK, I'm just extrapolating from what he wrote.

And one minor correction on my part. It wasn't that Dean Jensen could not make the type of transformer that Dr. W wanted.
It was more a case of it not being economically feasible to design and tool up for such a task, especially in the small quantities needed to build more Wolf Boxes.

But hey! If you got any Triad A-J11/12s laying around, it seems they be golden.

 

[Wasnex]

What I'm trying to drill down to is why is bass specifically such a nightmare compared to the other typical instruments in a rock band. Don't drums have more in terms of frequency dynamics, bleed, and high SPL?
Isn't a guitar that swings from clean chorus plucking to fire breathing distortion more to try to capture than a bass that stays at the same levels through out?

Each instrument has unique challenges. IMHO the challenge with bass has to do primarily with getting clarity and articulation. The problem relates to the frequency range of the instrument. Given the way you achieve your sound, I would not hesitate to mic your cab. This presents certain compromises and benefits. The only way you are going to understand is to sit on the other side of the mixing console and study the physics and practices related to sound reinforcement and recording.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I freaked out when I watched the Bon Jovi Rig Rundown in Premier Guitar.

View attachment 3182526

A Radial Firefly Tube DI straight to FOH , an overdrive and a tuner.

Dats a bitchin' board!

Wonder if he used velcro on the power outlet box?

How did he get so famous with such a sparse setup?
Thought sure anybody with less than a dozen pedals was going nowhere in the music biz?

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah, I've had people try that on me, too. I just plain don't care. I defer to people who have more expertise about a subject than me, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, and I stand my ground when I think I have just as much or more to offer as anyone else on a particular topic.

That said, even though Andy and I don't see eye to eye on everything, I do like and respect him very much. If he was running sound for me, I'd probably give him carte blanche. It's the soundfolks who AREN'T as on top of things as Andy I'm more worried about

First of all, there is no intention of being condescending.

Let me expand on this Jimmy, since you have a perhaps more similar and representative perspective as I do, with a wider set of experiences than many here. The DIFFERENCE in experiences and especially the lack of broad experiences can cause people to see (or comprehend) only a small part of the discussion.

Being "experienced" can mean different things to different people. I run into people who are "experienced" is that they are the biggest fish in the smallest pond... ie. they are the sound guy for a 50 seat venue that does inexperienced acts of a particular genre. I also run into people who have extensive experience with a single genre, they might know how to mic up a jazz band but have no experience with rock or metal or alt.

IMO, it's important to recognize that experience comes in many flavors. I have very little experience in areas such as thrash, doom metal, sludge, EDM, etc. I would never represent myself as experienced in these areas, and if I needed information I would seek out somebody who is experienced in these genres.

My experience crosses many genres, and quite deep in most. That's where doing it in the field for many years over lots of shows WITH MANY DIFFERENT ACTS (of different genres) develops a different and wider perspective. I have to be able to adapt, to roll with many (sometimes conflicting) needs and preferences from an entire band. Some of these needs take precedence over others, prioritization is one of the skills that gets developed quickly if you want to be successful. Sometimes, the priorities include things outside of the band itself, things like security (anybody out on the road gigging during the 9-11 era?), meal breaks, union rules, safety (a biggie in my book), facility rules, travel schedules, etc. EVERYTHING gets balanced to the best of our abilities, the guys on the road with experience get this and put everything in perspective.

Regarding guitarists getting treated "better", I disagree. From my perspective, especially for the types of shows that I did, I found guitarists in general easier to please BUT I also knew how to do this easily and efficiently. Good mic, well placed, or take their DI or both as needed and I could make things work because I usually wasn't working with difficult acoustics in the region that their signal resided. I generally had to work a little harder with bass because the venues that I typically worked in were larger and had more challenges with low frequency acoustics. This is one reason why DI's have become more common (in these types of venues) but that doesn't mean that I won't choose other options if there are good reasons (including musical style and unique signal path). Sometimes what seems like the best way (say using a mic) doesn't yield the expected results and the alternates work better in that situation. Since I was generally trusted to do the best job for the band I was working for (and the venue/audience perception sometimes factors into this), and the band was on the same page, that's what I would do. If I mic'd and DI'd the bass, some venues I would use more mic than DI, other venues I might use more DI than mic, and for some songs in a set I might change the mix too... "it depends".

As an example of mic versus DI, where I will almost always choose a direct signal is acoustic guitars... in large venues with any real monitor volume on stage, even though the mic might "sound better" it may not be possible to achieve enough gain before feedback to make it a practical choice. If you can't hear the guitar, it doesn't matter how "good" it sounds. Same applies to other acoustic instruments, acoustic pianos are another very real struggle on a loud stage BUT with the advent of the Helpinstill on acoustics or the CP-70/CP-80 and later electronic pianos like the Kurtzweil and even later the Yamaha synthesized/sampled products simply sounded better IN A LARGE, LIVE, LOUD ENVIRONMENT. Is this a compromise? Sure it is, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks in most cases. (Especially for the monitor engineer)

I'm in the process of retiring from the live audio side of the business, it's changed a lot since the earlier days... the equipment has gotten far better but as the complexity of the set-up has increased, so have the lengths of the work day. Used to be that we would load-in at say 2pm for an 8pm show, over at 10:30 and out by midnight (10 hours plus travel), but these days it's not uncommon for it to be an 8am in for an 8pm show, over at 10:30 and out by 1am (17 hours). I am finding that I can't do this anymore, and neither can my buddies, so a new generation is taking over that maybe has even more of an "edge" than those they are replacing... why? Because that's the "compromise" they make, mostly IMO due to the hours and travel.

All of these experiences help me develop product that addresses the real world needs of real world players. Not all players, not players who are not dealing with real world experiences and needs, but many players. Every compromise, every tradeoff, every design decision is based on addressing these real world issues gained from the years of experiences.

I will also acknowledge that my small venue experience is not current and may not be valid as I moved onto larger venues in the middle 1980's as I quickly recognized that I would never be able to earn a living in small venues, small clubs, etc. though I enjoyed the smaller format better.

If I were to be on a tour with somebody like Jimmy, I wouldn't expect any disagreement because of the broad range of experience. The worst guys to tour with are those without experience yet still knowing it all... that sometimes ends poorly at the Canadian boarder where their lack of experience with international touring results in their weed being confiscated and being put on the no boarded crossing list. (Yes, this did happen on a tour that I sent some gear out on... the guy was told again and again but he knew better. Got his sorry ass pulled off the bus, dogs and all and the RCMP didn't say "sorry" even once

 

[Nickweissmusic]

What I'm trying to drill down to is why is bass specifically such a nightmare compared to the other typical instruments in a rock band. Don't drums have more in terms of frequency dynamics, bleed, and high SPL?
Isn't a guitar that swings from clean chorus plucking to fire breathing distortion more to try to capture than a bass that stays at the same levels through out?

To expand on my post above, it Is actually harder to deal with bleed and dynamics on a bass signal than other instruments. Drums can easily be gated, so bleed is almost a non-issue on a modern board, but many good stages do use some from of isolation as well. Guitars put out signals that are easily amplified and heard, easy to compress and shape. Bass does not put out a strong audible signal, relatively speaking, and the signals that bleed into a bass mic are easier to amplify than the bass signal itself. If you compress the bass, you bring up the bleed. If you don’t compress it, it’s harder to shape the sound into its proper spot in the mix. So yes, there are very real challenges to doing this correctly from a sound engineer’s perspective when compared with other instruments, if you want the bass to be heard, that is

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Let me expand on this Jimmy, since you have a perhaps more similar perspective as I do, with a wider set of experiences than many here.

Being "experienced" can mean different things to different people. I run into people who are "experienced" is that they are the biggest fish in the smallest pond... ie. they are the sound guy for a 50 seat venue that does inexperienced acts of a particular genre. I also run into people who have extensive experience with a single genre, they might know how to mic up a jazz band but have no experience with rock or metal or alt.

IMO, it's important to recognize that experience comes in many flavors. I have very little experience in areas such as thrash, doom metal, sludge, EDM, etc. I would never represent myself as experienced in these areas, and if I needed information I would seek out somebody who is experienced in these genres.

My experience crosses many genres, and quite deep in most. That's where doing it in the field for many years over lots of shows WITH MANY DIFFERENT ACTS (of different genres) develops a different and wider perspective. I have to be able to adapt, to roll with many (sometimes conflicting) needs and preferences from an entire band. Some of these needs take precedence over others, prioritization is one of the skills that gets developed quickly if you want to be successful. Sometimes, the priorities include things outside of the band itself, things like security (anybody out on the road gigging during the 9-11 era?), meal breaks, union rules, safety (a biggie in my book), facility rules, travel schedules, etc. EVERYTHING gets balanced to the best of our abilities, the guys on the road with experience get this and put everything in perspective.

Regarding guitarists getting treated "better", I disagree. From my perspective, especially for the types of shows that I did, I found guitarists in general easier to please BUT I also knew how to do this easily and efficiently. Good mic, well placed, or take their DI or both as needed and I could make things work because I usually wasn't working with difficult acoustics in the region that their signal resided. I generally had to work a little harder with bass because the venues that I typically worked in were larger and had more challenges with low frequency acoustics. This is one reason why DI's have become more common (in these types of venues) but that doesn't mean that I won't choose other options if there are good reasons (including musical style and unique signal path). Sometimes what seems like the best way (say using a mic) doesn't yield the expected results and the alternates work better in that situation. Since I was generally trusted to do the best job for the band I was working for (and the venue/audience perception sometimes factors into this), and the band was on the same page, that's what I would do. If I mic'd and DI'd the bass, some venues I would use more mic than DI, other venues I might use more DI than mic, and for some songs in a set I might change the mix too... "it depends".

As an example of mic versus DI, where I will almost always choose a direct signal is acoustic guitars... in large venues with any real monitor volume on stage, even though the mic might "sound better" it may not be possible to achieve enough gain before feedback to make it a practical choice. If you can't hear the guitar, it doesn't matter how "good" it sounds. Same applies to other acoustic instruments, acoustic pianos are another very real struggle on a loud stage BUT with the advent of the Helpinstill on acoustics or the CP-70/CP-80 and later electronic pianos like the Kurtzweil and even later the Yamaha synthesized/sampled products simply sounded better IN A LARGE, LIVE, LOUD ENVIRONMENT. Is this a compromise? Sure it is, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks in most cases. (Especially for the monitor engineer)

I'm in the process of retiring from the live audio side of the business, it's changed a lot since the earlier days... the equipment has gotten far better but as the complexity of the set-up has increased, so have the lengths of the work day. Used to be that we would load-in at say 2pm for an 8pm show, over at 10:30 and out by midnight (10 hours plus travel), but these days it's not uncommon for it to be an 8am in for an 8pm show, over at 10:30 and out by 1am (17 hours). I am finding that I can't do this anymore, and neither can my buddies, so a new generation is taking over that maybe has even more of an "edge" than those they are replacing... why? Because that's the "compromise" they make, mostly IMO due to the hours and travel.

All of these experiences help me develop product that addresses the real world needs of real world players. Not all players, not players who are not dealing with real world experiences and needs, but many players. Every compromise, every tradeoff, every design decision is based on addressing these real world issues gained from the years of experiences.

I will also acknowledge that my small venue experience is not current and may not be valid as I moved onto larger venues in the middle 1980's as I quickly recognized that I would never be able to earn a living in small venues, small clubs, etc. though I enjoyed the smaller format better.

Interesting, what leads to the longer days? I’ve never run more than a 1500 seat room, and this was before the modern automation craziness available on the current decade’s boards, so you’re in a different world than mine.

 

[Wasnex]

I have used mic'ed cabs in studios and live environments ranging from tiny clubs to arenas, and the idea that it takes a lot longer to get a sound is absolute bunk. Not the least bit true. At all.

Depends upon if the tech is familiar with the equipment. If you come in with an SVT or B15 (or use the studio's amp), the tech might know exactly where to put the mic. My amp was an SWR Redhead so the techs had to fiddle with mic placement for an extended time. They tried close mic'ing and didn't like the results. More time spent placing the mic is less time dialing in EQ and compression. The techs spent almost no time dialing in the DI and I thought it sounded better than the mic'ed amp.

In comparison, they spent an entire morning dialing in the drums and about an hour dialing in the mic'ed guitar amp.

In recording sessions, techs don't always stick with the first mic they try. In the last recording session I did, the techs were very proud of their grand piano sound. They had spent months trying different mics and mic placements...this was done over several sessions.

 

[agedhorse]

What I'm trying to drill down to is why is bass specifically such a nightmare compared to the other typical instruments in a rock band. Don't drums have more in terms of frequency dynamics, bleed, and high SPL?
Isn't a guitar that swings from clean chorus plucking to fire breathing distortion more to try to capture than a bass that stays at the same levels through out?

(In larger acoustic spaces) The bass needs to sit within t he mix that includes the contribution of reflected energy from the venue's surfaces. Since the RT60 of a venue is generally heavily weighted towards low mid and low frequencies, a lot of care needs to be taken for bass, kick and the low frequencies of keys/synths to prevent excessive build-up of low frequency energy which can ruin an otherwise good mix.

Yep at least in the US.
I imagine there are other counties that pay child labor next to nothing to dig it up for them.
I believe this was at least a part of Dr. Wolfrum's objection to sourcing transformers from other places.
Socially and environmentally conscious it seems. But IDK, I'm just extrapolating from what he wrote.

And one minor correction on my part. It wasn't that Dean Jensen could not make the type of transformer that Dr. W wanted.
It was more a case of it not being economically feasible to design and tool up for such a task, especially in the small quantities needed to build more Wolf Boxes.

But hey! If you got any Triad A-J11/12s laying around, it seems they be golden.

There's more to this I suspect. Cobalt has been available in the US, and is also a byproduct of nickle mining. It's become quite expensive but the amount of cobalt in a small signal transformer is still only pennies.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[byacey]

Allow me to cut the rope before they run the horse out from under you, by asking...

Is the sound being produced by the bass player a lot more important to the bass player than it is to anyone else?
I get that everyone has a sound in their head that they would like to achieve and some go to great length to achieve that sound.
And that's OK.
But other than special riffs that make or break a song, and bass solos, as long as the bass player is sitting well in the mix, isn't that what's really important?

Hey! Wait! How'd this noose get around my neck? Nice horsey, nice horsey, just stay right here.

I think often this personal view of "My sound" is a security blanket pacifier for the musician. In my experiences, generally the more accomplished the performer, they are less demanding and picky about their stage sound. They know that what the audience hears is far more important than a "perfect" stage sound, and concessions are made if it enhances what the audience hears.

 

[Wasnex]

part of the confusion here may be that there are two factors to mic'ing a cab: placing the mic, and dialing in the signal that results. Putting up a mic takes as long as it takes to run a cable and get the mic stand in front of a driver. dialing the signal can take a lot longer, depending on the preferences of the player and the engineer, and the band mix. But "putting up a mic" is pretty durn quick.

The time to get a good sound depends somewhat on your definition of "good sound," and how strict you are with the definition. Ultimately the time to put up a mic is actually about the same as a DI.

I find it a lot easier to dial in a DI and a DI eliminates some problems, but sometimes the right answer is to use a mic.

 

[Stevenk]

FYI...Radial PZDI is pretty much a J48 with an expanded feature set including switchable input impedance (220K, 1Meg, 10Meg), variable HPF (5Hz-500Hz), buffered/parallel thru (switchable), LPF (switchable at 3kHz), etc.

PZ-DI - Radial Engineering

Interesting box! Is this basically designed for passive instruments and acoustic instruments with Fishman like transducer systems? Any ideas idea as the cost. I’ll look it up. Thx.

 

[agedhorse]

Interesting, what leads to the longer days? I’ve never run more than a 1500 seat room, and this was before the modern automation craziness available on the current decade’s boards, so you’re in a different world than mine.

Good question.

Part of it's the sheer amount of gear being loaded in and out, some of it is lighting and video/media, some of it is the time needed to deal with the ever-increasing number of inputs, some of it is balancing labor's ability to work around each other, making time for band meet & greets, and some of it is from the need to leave extra time to deal with things that may go wrong and need to be sorted out.

At some point for me, it stopped being "fun", it became less about the music and more about the visual experience. It also became more about separating the concert goers from their money.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Careful - some of us are 60. And yes, we (hopefully) have valuable insight to share with the "youngsters" (anyone under 50).

We take all kinds of pills that never give us thrills.
But the thrill we've never known
Is the thrill that'll gitcha when you get your picture
On the cover of the AARP

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Good question.

Part of it's the sheer amount of gear being loaded in and out, some of it is lighting and video/media, some of it is the time needed to deal with the ever-increasing number of inputs, some of it is balancing labor's ability to work around each other, making time for band meet & greets, and some of it is from the need to leave extra time to deal with things that may go wrong and need to be sorted out.

At some point for me, it stopped being "fun", it became less about the music and more about the visual experience. It also became more about separating the concert goers from their money.

Awesome perspective. Very lucky to live here in San Diego, with Humphrey’s and the outdoor amphitheater at SD State, incredible sounding venues with no video boards whatsoever I still get to see the spectacles at the stadiums, but can’t agree more about the difference between sound vs visual oriented venues, the best sounding ones are hardly the biggest, If you’re in it for the music, you can’t also be in it for the bread.

 

[Wasnex]

Interesting box! Is this basically designed for passive instruments and acoustic instruments with Fishman like transducer systems? Any ideas idea as the cost. I’ll look it up. Thx.

The marketing material suggests it was designed specifically for instruments equipped with unbuffered piezo pickups. But it works perfectly with regular passive and active basses as well.

I bought a mint used one for $189 with free shipping off Ebay...$229 New with free shipping
https://www.amazon.com/Radial-PZ-DI-Piezo-optimized-Direct-Box/dp/B00B8KM7KC

I bought the PZDI because I tend to gravitate toward really flexible gear.

I don't own a string bass anymore, but I still have my old Underwood piezo pickup and it needs to loaded with at least 1Meg to sound best. I bought the PZDI just in case, with the knowledge that it will sound great with my passive and active electric basses.

If you like to tinker I think it's a great step up from the J48. But, if extra buttons and knobs confuse you, don't buy it.

 

[Wood and Wire]

but these days it's not uncommon for it to be an 8am in for an 8pm show, over at 10:30 and out by 1am (17 hours). I am finding that I can't do this anymore, and neither can my buddies, so a new generation is taking over that maybe has even more of an "edge" than those they are replacing... why? Because that's the "compromise" they make, mostly IMO due to the hours and travel.

So you're saying bassists should expect FOH engineers to be even more tired, and grouchy, moving forward...

 

[Nickweissmusic]

The marketing material suggests it was designed specifically for instruments equipped with unbuffered piezo pickups. But it works perfectly with regular passive and active basses as well.

I bought a mint used one for $189 with free shipping off Ebay...$229 New with free shipping
https://www.amazon.com/Radial-PZ-DI-Piezo-optimized-Direct-Box/dp/B00B8KM7KC

I bought the PZDI because I tend to gravitate toward really flexible gear.

I don't own a string bass anymore, but I still have my old Underwood piezo pickup and it needs to loaded with at least 1Meg to sound best. I bought the PZDI just in case, with the knowledge that it will sound great with my passive and active electric basses.

If you like to tinker I think it's a great step up from the J48. But, if extra buttons and knobs confuse you, don't buy it.

Another step up from the J48, albeit an expensive one: the Radial Firefly. Holy cow does it sound good on everything, I’d run a bowl of soup through it if I could, it would sound better. Incredibly useful variable input loading, high pass filter that I can no longer record without, works great live too. It’s few bells and whistles are easily usable: just tweak til it sounds better.