Banished to the DI Zone

[petrus61]

I respect the necessity for these types of discussions, and more fundamentally the necessity of having a basic knowledge of the technical aspects of live sound and recording, but boy does it suck the fun out of playing sometimes. I know a good live sound takes effort (and $$$), but getting there has to be my least favorite part of the whole endeavor. Kudos to you folks for asking and answering the hard questions...

 

[BurningSkies]

If y’all are worried about fussing with mic placement, I assume you’ve marked your speaker cab for mic placement?

 

[agedhorse]

Why are there two 10 page+ threads on the same topic on the front page?

Sometimes TB feels like the punchline of a joke someone would write if they were to imagine what a forum for bass players would look like.

Perhaps if you looked past your selfish and degrading statement here and considered that there are a lot of OTHER players who are learning from this and other discussions, it wouldn't appear so much as a joke than as a place to learn from others.

I don't know who you are,or where you are coming from, but my background is plenty public, and my history helping people here understand tough or confusing topics that you feel are beneath them is well known and accepted.

If this is all such a joke to you, why are you here? You certainly aren't being very helpful t o the community IMO.

We are starting to veer off on to a totally different but well trod TB path. Suffice to say one could make the argument that everyone is standing on someone else's musical shoulders. We are all just improving the work of a cave man banging rocks together in time.

To the tonal point, unless I missed my guess, I would say that acts like Lynch are tuned to E, Eb, maybe D on a good day. There are entire genres were C is the starting point and it only goes down from there. Whats more, they tend to use fuzz pedals that have all sorts of low end spraying odd and even order harmonics all over the venue. Those guitar players are very close to standard register bass frequencies, and mic'ing them isn't an issue. Or at least not a prohibitive one. It feels like the technology and skill to do it exists, there is just a lack of will or interest.

If you can't understand that everything we do in music evolves from what's come before up, you might want to take a music history class or two. Same goes for music theory. Everything has evolved, and the stories behind the evolution are fascinating. When I was working Taj Mahal gigs, he would often talk about musical roots, and how they developed into different music styles from a common root. He also had a degree in ethno-musicology, this was important to him, he expected us to listen and learn (which we all did).

I'm talking about acts that I have experience with, the acts that may tune to Eb or D perhaps, but they set the standard that the later acts evolved from. Tuning 1 step down from D only marginally extends farther into
bass territory, but the fuzz harmonics are ALL higher than that, not lower. Yes, there is bleed from the guitars too, especially at the stage volume they are played at.

Micing you might discover isn't done entirely with 57's unless that voicing is the goal. I see 409's, 421's used for this application as well. I also see direct channels being used more and more (including modeling and profiling) because it CAN be more effective to reproduce that tone (or that part of the tone) this way.

The entire reason for our George Lynch project was the extend the low end of his rig without destroying speakers. That took a unique approach, a hybrid between a bass and guitar cabinet. George often used 57's for micing his rig live, sometimes not, but experimented a lot in the studio with all kinds of mics (including condenser).

 

[callofcthulhu]

Perhaps if you looked past your selfish and degrading statement here and considered that there are a lot of OTHER players who are learning from this and other discussions, it wouldn't appear so much as a joke than as a place to learn from others.

I don't know who you are,or where you are coming from, but my background is plenty public, and my history helping people here understand tough or confusing topics that you feel are beneath them is well known and accepted.

If this is all such a joke to you, why are you here?

Just another fly in the ointment, a monkey in the wrench.

I'm not suggesting there's not useful info in both threads. To the contrary, if they're both so useful they should be consolidated so that the information is more easily accessible to future readers. Perhaps the subject should be a sticky?

 

[socialleper]

So firing the dummer (caveman banging rocks in time) is firing everybody who plays music?

Did that first caveman get fired for showing up drunk?
Maybe.

 

[socialleper]

If you can't understand that everything we do in music evolves from what's come before up, you might want to take a music history class or two.

I am aware of this, it just isn't critical to this particular discussion.

 

[agedhorse]

I am aware of this, it just isn't critical to this particular discussion.

Understanding the history and evolution of music closely matches up with the evolution of the equipment, it's very intertwined.

That's why it's relevant to the discussion.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

My guitarist plugs directly from his Headrush pedalboard DI to the mixer. I DI from my D800. All is good.

 

[byacey]

Well OK then. Guess I shouldn’t believe anything I read on the internet.
Thanks for the wiki-p update and setting me straight.

I wasn't trying to correct anybody; I didn't know myself, so I looked it up.

I didn't quite understand why these items were difficult to obtain for transformer iron when it's commonly used in machinist cutting tools.

 

[David Jayne]

Because most electric guitarists get almost all of their sound from their amps and speakers. They literally play their amps. There are ways around this but why bother? We generally get most of our sound from the bass guitar itself.

 

[JimmyM]

Because most electric guitarists get almost all of their sound from their amps and speakers. They literally play their amps. There are ways around this but why bother? We generally get most of our sound from the bass guitar itself.

Well you may, but not all of us want that.

 

[David Jayne]

Well you may, but not all of us want that.

Agreed, but my point stands.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

How did this happen to bass players? How did we almost all universally get shoved into the DI zone while our guitar playing brethren still get mic'ed without question?
I know this isn't a new thing. When I was a young buck reading paper copies of Bass Player in the 90s it was common knowledge that you were going to get DI'ed live and in recording sessions. I didn't question it at the time; it was just how things were.
But how did we get here? As much as people on TB love old recordings, where they mic'ed the cabs, no one bats an eye at having that part of our tone taken away from us.
Live, mic'ing a guitar cab just happens. No discussion. Bass players have to fight to get mic'ed, sometimes even bringing their own mic to try to coerce the sound engineer into doing it.
Hours are spent tweaking cab placement, selecting mics, and placing the mic at recording studios. Bass? "Here's cable, just plug into the board."

Was it the transition from tube heads to SS heads? Was it the advent of full digital recording?

If you don’t go DI, what good is a sound engineer? Guitars at a reasonable level do not bleed as much as the bass. Their sound does not travel as far either.

A good engineer can make you sound just as good as you can out of your rig, without screwing up the overall sound of the band, which can easily happen with a bassist overly reliant on low frequencies. Keep in mind, it isn’t how you sound on stage that is important, it’s what the audience hears.

To get a great sound using a DI requires you to communicate with your engineer. Be polite and detailed on what you are looking for sound wise, and understand they are not mind readers. Their job is to make the entire act sound great, not just you.

I’ve found the best DI results come which I give them a flat signal with the pickups wide open on an active bass. On my passive PB, pickups open all the way and the tone up all the way.

 

[JimmyM]

If you don’t go DI, what good is a sound engineer?

That was a joke, right?

 

[David Jayne]

Yeah, look we all have our different gigs and preferences. My main gig is a large wedding band. There's usually near zero room onstage for me. I have to put my pedal board on top of my amp for chrissakes. Because of that and the (frequently) PITA schlep I use a very small, very loud (when needed) and clear rig that works REALLY well for onstage monitoring, but doesn't produce what I'd call my IDEAL sound. So DI it is, and I'm very pleased with what comes out of FOH. Once in awhile I'm able to bring something larger and better-sounding and if so, we mic it. I like it. It's better that way. But usually not practical. Usually the emphasis is on hearing and being heard onstage and I've got that down and I'm ok with it.

 

[agedhorse]

To get a great sound using a DI requires you to communicate with your engineer. Be polite and detailed on what you are looking for sound wise, and understand they are not mind readers. Their job is to make the entire act sound great, not just you.

I'm going to suggest that the best way to get ANYTHING to sound great and the way you intend it to sound out front is with good communication. Actually, it's the best way to get the band to sound good on stage as well.

 

[Kro]

In my corner of the DI Zone it's pretty nice. Sure, it wasn't anything to write home about when I first arrived, but add a fresh coat of paint, some drapery, and a potted plant... now it feels like home.

You should visit sometime.

 

[agedhorse]

In my corner of the DI Zone it's pretty nice. Sure, it wasn't anything to write home about when I first arrived, but add a fresh coat of paint, some drapery, and a potted plant... now it feels like home.

You should visit sometime.

I like what you did with the place

 

[beans-on-toast]

Hours are spent tweaking cab placement, selecting mics, and placing the mic at recording studios. Bass? "Here's cable, just plug into the board."

I understand and agree with your initial post.

In the studio, hours can indeed be spent on placement of multiple mics and getting a good drum sound with no phase issues. There are all kinds of ways to mic drums, some much easier than others.

When it comes to micing a bass cab, the process is not necessarily that difficult or time consuming. Time is not a good excuse. Often a single speaker is mic’ed. Some tests can be done to determine which speaker sounds the best but this isn’t a big deal, it’s done once. Often the speaker is close mic’ed, more towards the dust cap reveals the higher frequencies more. Placement is based on the sound that you want. Some people simply place a mic on the floor a few feet from the cab. No question the the sound of the speakers can be an important part of your sound. Some people even use more than one type of speaker cabinet to get a blend of sound.

I like DI’ing and using a mic at the same time. The mic provides a unique sound with some air. The DI can fill in for the weak spots in the frequency spectrum such as low frequency rolloff of some mics. I see both approaches as being useful. Live you may need a box (for example, Phazer - Radial Engineering, in the 70’s the Eventide 1745 digital delay line was popular) that can compensate for phase issues between the two. If the sound person doesn’t have this, they might opt to choose a DI.

As for DI’s, there are more than one type, capable of capturing different parts of the signal chain. A basic DI that connects to the pre out is at one end of the scale. At the other end is one that captures the contribution of the power amp such as a Countryman 85, a Radial, or a Neve RNDI. Kick it up a notch and you have products such as Torpedo Live or Studio which have a dummy load and impulse response cabinet and mic simulators.

Maybe bass players need to consider taking a more active role in how their sound is conveyed. There are many approaches.

 

[jnewmark]

I understand and agree with your initial post.

In the studio, hours could be spent with mic placement of multiple mics getting a good drum sound with no phase issues. There are all kinds of ways to mic drums, some much easier than others.

When it comes to micing a bass cab, the process is not necessarily that difficult or time consuming. Time is not a good excuse. Often a single speaker is mic’ed. Some tests can be done to determine which speaker sounds the best but this isn’t a big deal, it’s done once. Often the speaker is close mic’ed, more towards the dust cap reveals the higher frequencies more. Placement is based on the sound that you want. Some people simply place a mic on the floor a few feet from the cab. No question the the sound of the speakers can be an important part of your sound. Some people even use more than one type of speaker cabinet to get a blend of sound.

I like DI’ing and using a mic at the same time. The mic provides a unique sound with some air. The DI can fill in for the weak spots in the frequency spectrum such as low frequency rolloff of some mics. I see both approaches as being useful. Live you may need a box (for example, Phazer - Radial Engineering, in the 70’s the Eventide 1745 digital delay line was popular) that can compensate for phase issues between the two. If the sound person doesn’t have this, they might opt to choose a DI.

As for DI’s, there are more than one type, capable of capturing different parts of the signal chain. A basic DI that connects to the pre out is at one end of the scale. At the other end is one that captures the contribution of the power amp such as a Countryman 85, a Radial, or a Neve RNDI. Kick it up a notch and you have products such as Torpedo Live or Studio which have a dummy load and impulse response cabinet and mic simulators.

Maybe bass players need to consider taking a more active role in how their sound is conveyed. There are many approaches.

+1. For the last few years, I have been mic'ed and direct at the same time. I quite like the tone I'm getting, and I think it fits in with the genre :