Banished to the DI Zone

[beans-on-toast]

+1. For the last few years, I have been mic'ed and direct at the same time. I quite like the tone I'm getting, and I think it fits in with the genre :

I like the song, the bass makes it.

It has a vibe of the Staples Singers.

 

[LowFactor]

One thing I haven't really seen mentioned yet is the physics of all of this. The wavelength of the fundamentals in bass can be over 30 feet long. And because if there length can load the room differently than a guitar and cause things to get boomy really quick with standing waves etc. DIs are the cleanest way to get that into the PA. Guitars will get shrill and nasty real quick without a cab sim. Their wavelengths are also shorter so easier to block with plexi or simply facing the cab upstage.
I always prefer a DI on a bass cause it gets you the fullest range signal to send to the PA. If effects are being used I'll often DI off the bass and mic the cab for the effects. Or if no effects are being used I will use the mic for a little midrange push...
And yes I do prefer a good external DI as opposed to one on the back of the head. easier to isolate hums and buzzes with a transformer in the signal path. If I do use the built in one on a amp I will often still throw a Klark Teknik DI or a 1:1 ISO transformer in line to isolate and get rid of ground loops. It has xlr in and out...
You are not being punished by being put on a DI. We are just trying to get the best possible signal to the audience. Also oftentimes bass players stand next to their amps and adjust the eq and then don't move out in the room to hear what happens when the waveform fully develops. Might sound good onstage to you but be boomy in the house. I've had to pull bass out of the subs quite often cause the onstage amp was killing the house with low end....
Bass and its frequency range need different treatment than other instruments.
I also find it amusing how the sound guy always get blamed or complained about. Go to a "sound guy" forum and you won't see a lot of complaints about bad players or horrible tones coming out of amps.
And to sociallepper.... IEM packs have volume knobs on them that you can control... if you are using IEMs then the person controlling them should be wearing IEMs too to monitor what they are doing. Trust me. We don't want to blow our ears out either.

 

[socialleper]

One thing I haven't really seen mentioned yet is the physics of all of this. The wavelength of the fundamentals in bass can be over 30 feet long. And because if there length can load the room differently than a guitar and cause things to get boomy really quick with standing waves etc. DIs are the cleanest way to get that into the PA. Guitars will get shrill and nasty real quick without a cab sim. Their wavelengths are also shorter so easier to block with plexi or simply facing the cab upstage.
I always prefer a DI on a bass cause it gets you the fullest range signal to send to the PA. If effects are being used I'll often DI off the bass and mic the cab for the effects. Or if no effects are being used I will use the mic for a little midrange push...
And yes I do prefer a good external DI as opposed to one on the back of the head. easier to isolate hums and buzzes with a transformer in the signal path. If I do use the built in one on a amp I will often still throw a Klark Teknik DI or a 1:1 ISO transformer in line to isolate and get rid of ground loops. It has xlr in and out...
You are not being punished by being put on a DI. We are just trying to get the best possible signal to the audience. Also oftentimes bass players stand next to their amps and adjust the eq and then don't move out in the room to hear what happens when the waveform fully develops. Might sound good onstage to you but be boomy in the house. I've had to pull bass out of the subs quite often cause the onstage amp was killing the house with low end....
Bass and its frequency range need different treatment than other instruments.
I also find it amusing how the sound guy always get blamed or complained about. Go to a "sound guy" forum and you won't see a lot of complaints about bad players or horrible tones coming out of amps.
And to sociallepper.... IEM packs have volume knobs on them that you can control... if you are using IEMs then the person controlling them should be wearing IEMs too to monitor what they are doing. Trust me. We don't want to blow our ears out either.

There are some things here that if I were in a perfect world, it would be awesome. As with many things here on TB, I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe.

If there was an opportunity to walk out into the venue to hear how everyone sounds that would be awesome. It is also impossible. 90% of the time my bands are a part of a 5-6 band bill with 15 minutes between sets for teardown\setup and line checks. There is no time, there is literally a crown in your way, and frankly I don't trust wireless. I know I'm the one guy in the world that doesn't. Many stages I'm on are just big enough for my board and for me to stand in front of my cab. Wireless seems silly.
I also don't use IEM. There is the wireless aspect, the cost of good molds, I play shows where the PA is a pair of powered speakers and a mic for vocals only, and if I don't trust the sound guys not to F up my sound, I'm sure as heck not going to put a loaded gun in my ear.
Sadly, when I play shows I have no idea what the rest of the band or the audience is hearing. I listen to the drums, use my amp as a monitor, and play along to the song in my head. It is all a guessing game.

 

[Jack]

There are some things here that if I were in a perfect world, it would be awesome. As with many things here on TB, I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe....
Sadly, when I play shows I have no idea what the rest of the band or the audience is hearing. I listen to the drums, use my amp as a monitor, and play along to the song in my head. It is all a guessing game.

So if you're not in the PA, and you can't hear what's going on, who's captaining this ship? Is there a trusted pair of ears anywhere in the audience?

 

[BurningSkies]

In my corner of the DI Zone it's pretty nice. Sure, it wasn't anything to write home about when I first arrived, but add a fresh coat of paint, some drapery, and a potted plant... now it feels like home.

You should visit sometime.

It's probably the drapes, They cut down on all that high-and-mid frequency bounce around. Although, potted plants are really nice too, they give your decorating a 'live' touch and return oxygen to the room.

 

[BurningSkies]

TB is really cool in that it can be a 'melting pot' of different types and levels of bass players. There's guys who will never play out to those who play shows all the time. There's guys who will rarely get full PA support all the way to people who only play shows with state of the art systems. Small/large. Loud/soft. You name it, we've got it here.

The bigger problem is that people often take their world as the only world. And their answer is the only answer. This discussion is a good place to learn that there's a whole bunch of answers to different questions. Literally none of us are in the same situations, rooms, styles or contexts. Probably best to listen to each other so when you find yourself being the fish out of water, you have a bit of a knowledge base for how to handle a tough situation. That could be you playing on your first major league big stage, or it could be the first time you have to survive the 15-band-metalfest show. The good news is that live music is made on a whole bunch of levels and (hopefully) there are people in the audience for all of them.

 

[socialleper]

So if you're not in the PA, and you can't hear what's going on, who's captaining this ship? Is there a trusted pair of ears anywhere in the audience?

With bar shows like that, no one. If we are way too loud the bartender or promoter might tell us to turn down. Beyond that, who knows that is going on in front of us. That's rock 'n roll I guess.

 

[jnewmark]

I like the song, the bass makes it.

It has a vibe of the Staples Singers.

Thanks Beans, it was written by Johnny Rawls, a guy who I've been working with the last two years. Check him out if he ever comes your way.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Thanks Beans, it was written by Johnny Rawls, a guy who I've been working with the last two years. Check him out if he ever comes your way.

Thanks for the heads up.

So many blues songs sound the same. This one is more unique and it has a good feel.

Writing good songs isn’t easy. I can figure out how they go but knowing how the come is the hard part.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

That was a joke, right?

Of course.....

Really, my experience with qualified sound engineers is very positive. And , yes I’ve worked with some that didn’t measure up, but most of the time, if I put in the time with them, I get what I need out of the equation .

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I wasn't trying to correct anybody; I didn't know myself, so I looked it up.

I didn't quite understand why these items were difficult to obtain for transformer iron when it's commonly used in machinist cutting tools.

Naw. All good.

I’m not sure either and only guessed it’s a mining thing from the link I posted.

 

[Chickenwheels]

If I’m strategic with my speaker cab placement at small gigs, the hi hat mic helps add some amp tone into the mix..!

 

[Chickenwheels]

I considered the Eleven, based on what I’ve heard. But, so far, I am extremely pleased with what this setup is delivering.
View attachment 3181762

I wanted a Noble until I remembered who and what stumbled/spilled around our stages...

 

[Chickenwheels]

TB is really cool in that it can be a 'melting pot' of different types and levels of bass players. There's guys who will never play out to those who play shows all the time. There's guys who will rarely get full PA support all the way to people who only play shows with state of the art systems. Small/large. Loud/soft. You name it, we've got it here.

The bigger problem is that people often take their world as the only world. And their answer is the only answer. This discussion is a good place to learn that there's a whole bunch of answers to different questions. Literally none of us are in the same situations, rooms, styles or contexts. Probably best to listen to each other so when you find yourself being the fish out of water, you have a bit of a knowledge base for how to handle a tough situation. That could be you playing on your first major league big stage, or it could be the first time you have to survive the 15-band-metalfest show. The good news is that live music is made on a whole bunch of levels and (hopefully) there are people in the audience for all of them.

True this. I’ve spent some time on this and a similar thread just to get a feel for what everyone is doing and maybe learn some new tricks. It interests me more now than when I was young and just wanted to play! Thanks to all, interesting stuff.

 

[BurningSkies]

If I’m strategic with my speaker cab placement at small gigs, the hi hat mic helps add some amp tone into the mix..!

This seems like a 'it seemed like a good idea at the time' thing that every sound engineer on the planet would mostly hate. I can't imagine beyond smaller run your own PA/set it and forget it gigs that anyone would love having the hat & bass submixed.

 

[BurningSkies]

I wanted a Noble until I remembered who and what stumbled/spilled around our stages...

Yeah, I'm always sort of surprised at those who trust high value preamps on the stage itself. Even though we generally are playing on more controlled stages, there's still lots of motion before, during and after a set. I'd prefer anything with tubes, etc. to be on top of my cabs or at the backline where it's less likely to suffer injury. I remember the original Noble preamps with the tubes hanging out and how nuts I thought it was.

I know that my amp/preamp artist of choice has been working on a compact 'pedal style' preamp in recent times...and after playing with solid state designs, I think has moved to playing with a tube based design. I'm interested to see what he comes up with that can also stand the test of stage & pack rigors.

 

[basscapes]

It's great to see that not only has this post gone on for 16 pages (as of this date), but that there are so many opinions about this topic!

That alone says there are enough players out there who are extremely passionate about their respective playing and tone to have a valued voice here!

I for one will jump at the chance to have my cab miked, if the option is there. Ever take the sound from your distortion boxes and run it "clean" into your recording interface (minus the amp, speaker emulator or miked cabinet)? It ain't pretty. Trust me on this! TRY IT SOMETIME! This is what most sound guys will be dealing at FOH in most clubs where they will have a basic (meaning) cheap DI box...

To ME, my cab (and amp head) are PART of the overall tone I want. I've offered this point before, so I won't go into it in great detail here.

Suffice, I WANT my amp and speaker to be part of the character of my tone. Sure there are DI boxes that one can hook up at any point between bass and amp, amp and speaker, etc. Do they get the "magic" that I hear at coming out of the speaker cones of my cab? Who knows???

FOH at a local club MIGHT have a specific DI box for bass, but usually not.

Joe's Drinks & Eats doesn't give one rat's @$$ about how mangled (or pristine) your tone is coming out of the FOH (assuming Joe's Drinks & Eats has an FOH PA that doesn't suck too!). No Pa, guess what? You'll probably be needing your speaker cabs for this fgig...

Even if the PA there was State Of The Art for it's given price, Mr. Sound Guy probably doesn't care either. You are the 12th band in-house this month, so he's really only there to make sure that your drummer's squeaky kick drum pedal's doesn't sound like a 747 taking off through the mains, and that the vocals are clear (oh, yeah, and that people are dancing, 'cause they'll have more of Joe's Drinks, and maybe some of his fabulous Eats!). Mike you up? Naw. Mr Sound Guy doesn't have TIME to worry about one more mike... He's too busy between sets dealing (or snorting) coke in the back alley behind the club; that's why you can never find him to ask him if he could put a phaser or flanger sound on the drum kit when your band breaks into Kashmir during the 3rd set.

How many of you gigging guys out there can say the above hasn't happened to you at least twice in your round of the local or even regional clubs? Really??

So, rather than deal with all that crap of FOH (or lack thereof), I have to defer to the great Mr David Wm. Simms of Jesus Lizard fame- see my tag line below.

Unless Mr. Sound Guy has a digital board that has plug-ins that can replicate my cab spot on, or is actually WILLING to take time to find the amps miking sweet spot, I say just play.

Play it loud!

If you are rehearsed enough, you ALL should remember what goes where anyway, regardless of yours or the band's overall volume.

Besides, by the 3rd song of the second set, the audience will be juiced enough to start yelling at the appropriate musicians to turn up or down anyway!

YMMV

 

[_Some Dude]

Considering how many great albums were recorded with the bass DI’d, I think DI’d bass is the sound that many of us hear in our heads.

 

[Dr_Benway]

It's great to see that not only has this post gone on for 16 pages (as of this date), but that there are so many opinions about this topic!

That alone says there are enough players out there who are extremely passionate about their respective playing and tone to have a valued voice here!

I for one will jump at the chance to have my cab miked, if the option is there. Ever take the sound from your distortion boxes and run it "clean" into your recording interface (minus the amp, speaker emulator or miked cabinet)? It ain't pretty. Trust me on this! TRY IT SOMETIME! This is what most sound guys will be dealing at FOH in most clubs where they will have a basic (meaning) cheap DI box...

To ME, my cab (and amp head) are PART of the overall tone I want. I've offered this point before, so I won't go into it in great detail here.

Suffice, I WANT my amp and speaker to be part of the character of my tone. Sure there are DI boxes that one can hook up at any point between bass and amp, amp and speaker, etc. Do they get the "magic" that I hear at coming out of the speaker cones of my cab? Who knows???

FOH at a local club MIGHT have a specific DI box for bass, but usually not.

Joe's Drinks & Eats doesn't give one rat's @$$ about how mangled (or pristine) your tone is coming out of the FOH (assuming Joe's Drinks & Eats has an FOH PA that doesn't suck too!). No Pa, guess what? You'll probably be needing your speaker cabs for this fgig...

Even if the PA there was State Of The Art for it's given price, Mr. Sound Guy probably doesn't care either. You are the 12th band in-house this month, so he's really only there to make sure that your drummer's squeaky kick drum pedal's doesn't sound like a 747 taking off through the mains, and that the vocals are clear (oh, yeah, and that people are dancing, 'cause they'll have more of Joe's Drinks, and maybe some of his fabulous Eats!). Mike you up? Naw. Mr Sound Guy doesn't have TIME to worry about one more mike... He's too busy between sets dealing (or snorting) coke in the back alley behind the club; that's why you can never find him to ask him if he could put a phaser or flanger sound on the drum kit when your band breaks into Kashmir during the 3rd set.

How many of you gigging guys out there can say the above hasn't happened to you at least twice in your round of the local or even regional clubs? Really??

So, rather than deal with all that crap of FOH (or lack thereof), I have to defer to the great Mr David Wm. Simms of Jesus Lizard fame- see my tag line below.

Unless Mr. Sound Guy has a digital board that has plug-ins that can replicate my cab spot on, or is actually WILLING to take time to find the amps miking sweet spot, I say just play.

Play it loud!

If you are rehearsed enough, you ALL should remember what goes where anyway, regardless of yours or the band's overall volume.

Besides, by the 3rd song of the second set, the audience will be juiced enough to start yelling at the appropriate musicians to turn up or down anyway!

YMMV

As a multi-instrumentalist (including bass) and professional sound engineer working at a performing arts center, I'd like to say what I think about your comments, but I'd most likely be banned.

If I can't be found after someone's set, it's usually because I'm fixing something.

Play it loud indeed. Nothing like 1000 watts of bass to contend with. The best reason I can see to mic a bass cabinet is to flip the phase on the mic in hopes of calming it down a bit.

I always offer bassists a choice of DI, Mic or both. 90 percent of them ask for a DI out of their amp, which is usually a small combo. Just like the idiot guitarist who has to have a triple rectifier blasting and destroying the house mix, bassists who insist on bringing huge rigs aren't doing themselves or the band they are playing with any favors.

Chances are, if you're bringing anything larger than a combo bass amp into a venue that's smaller than 1000 seats, your not in the house at all. And that's because the sound engineer had no choice, if they wanted a balanced mix. What really sucks is when you have the bass completely off everywhere and it's still killing the mix.

Any competent sound person will have time to mic up a cab if needed, but that's not the real-world situation most have to deal with. In a small venue (we have a 180 seat black box and 900 seat main theater; both which qualify as a small venue), you can't just keep turning up everything to overcome the roar of a huge bass rig. So before you blame it on the sound engineer, maybe you should reconsider bringing that behemoth into the corner stage at a 90 seat venue.

If you can't get your sound without a multi-cabbed high wattage system, maybe your sound isn't worth getting.

 

[_Some Dude]

As a multi-instrumentalist (including bass) and professional sound engineer working at a performing arts center, I'd like to say what I think about your comments, but I'd most likely be banned.

If I can't be found after someone's set, it's usually because I'm fixing something.

Play it loud indeed. Nothing like 1000 watts of bass to contend with. The best reason I can see to mic a bass cabinet is to flip the phase on the mic in hopes of calming it down a bit.

I always offer bassists a choice of DI, Mic or both. 90 percent of them ask for a DI out of their amp, which is usually a small combo. Just like the idiot guitarist who has to have a triple rectifier blasting and destroying the house mix, bassists who insist on bringing huge rigs aren't doing themselves or the band they are playing with any favors.

Chances are, if you're bringing anything larger than a combo bass amp into a venue that's smaller than 1000 seats, your not in the house at all. And that's because the sound engineer had no choice, if they wanted a balanced mix. What really sucks is when you have the bass completely off everywhere and it's still killing the mix.

Any competent sound person will have time to mic up a cab if needed, but that's not the real-world situation most have to deal with. In a small venue (we have a 180 seat black box and 900 seat main theater; both which qualify as a small venue), you can't just keep turning up everything to overcome the roar of a huge bass rig. So before you blame it on the sound engineer, maybe you should reconsider bringing that behemoth into the corner stage at a 90 seat venue.

If you can't get your sound without a multi-cabbed high wattage system, maybe your sound isn't worth getting.

My local 500 person venue has an SVT and 810e backline. They seem to do OK.