Banished to the DI Zone

[socialleper]

That alone says there are enough players out there who are extremely passionate about their respective playing and tone to have a valued voice here!

TB is never short of opinions.
The responses have made me consider where my responsibility for my sound might me. For live situations I could consider getting a "better" DI than what my head has coming out of it. Maybe even buy a mic and keep it with me. Those are expensive options, and I'm not sure how I would test them.
The recording situation is in some ways more frustrating to me. I did sessions in 2015 and 2017, and both times I got screwed over because of a lack of motivation or knowledge. One studio was more old school, and he DI'ed me, but had the signal going through some wonderful Groove Tubes preamps and compressors. The articulation sounded great, but I really wanted a second track of a mic'ed cab to give it some depth. All that went right out the window. The guy that re-mixed it (long story) should have known about sims\IRs to get the tone I wanted.
The more recent recording was done all DI, even the guitars, and the drums were done with pads. It was quick and cheap, but the quality wasn't bad. On the guitar and drums that is. The engineer\producer didn't listen to anything I was telling him, didn't use sims\IRs, and gave me the options of being nothing by mid-clank or buried in the mix because that's all he understood. If he had used the Amplitude that I'm using now he could have dialed in what I was looking for in seconds. But no. I paid just as much as the other members to listen to them mess around for hours, while I nailed my tracks in 3 shots and ended up with something that makes me angry every time I listen to it.

 

[Das Jugghead]

Ok I'll step out into traffic now and see what happens.

I like this DI/preamp and it is a permanent resident on my pedal board. To be clear my post is in reference to using a DI in a live setting but I have used just this pedal (and nothing else) to record into my Focusrite Scarlett interface and really liked the results. I have yet to use it in a live situation with FOH support. The settings in the picture below are not what I currently use - my son was "helping" with the knobs when I took this picture.

Strictly seeking feedback from the live sound engineers here who have worked with this pedal - what are your observations and recommendations for this pedal? If you do not like this pedal can you please explain why and what would make some other pedal a better choice.

Not looking to start another war here - just wanting to find the best approach to working live with a DI. I use limited effects (chorus, flanger or phaser occasionally, and on rare occasion some grit) but when I do use them (sparingly) I would like for them to be present in FOH if possible.

 

[MordBass]

TB is never short of opinions.
The responses have made me consider where my responsibility for my sound might me. For live situations I could consider getting a "better" DI than what my head has coming out of it. Maybe even buy a mic and keep it with me. Those are expensive options, and I'm not sure how I would test them.
The recording situation is in some ways more frustrating to me. I did sessions in 2015 and 2017, and both times I got screwed over because of a lack of motivation or knowledge. One studio was more old school, and he DI'ed me, but had the signal going through some wonderful Groove Tubes preamps and compressors. The articulation sounded great, but I really wanted a second track of a mic'ed cab to give it some depth. All that went right out the window. The guy that re-mixed it (long story) should have known about sims\IRs to get the tone I wanted.
The more recent recording was done all DI, even the guitars, and the drums were done with pads. It was quick and cheap, but the quality wasn't bad. On the guitar and drums that is. The engineer\producer didn't listen to anything I was telling him, didn't use sims\IRs, and gave me the options of being nothing by mid-clank or buried in the mix because that's all he understood. If he had used the Amplitude that I'm using now he could have dialed in what I was looking for in seconds. But no. I paid just as much as the other members to listen to them mess around for hours, while I nailed my tracks in 3 shots and ended up with something that makes me angry every time I listen to it.

I really feel you on this. I think it might come from the idea that many bass players are less than knowledgeable on their own gear and sound. I mean, I consider myself a gearhead and I've worked in A/V in the past buuuuuuuut.... after playing gui*ar in a number of bands, I have found that so many bass players have no real understanding of how to achieve tones. This is likely why so many engineers and sound guys tend to blow off the bassist. For this reason I like to have a chat with them before the show or session. I explain my rig in a really simple matter and tell them what I need. With my current bi-amp setup I just let them know that a pair of XLRs is all thats needed. Theyll get a high and low from me and they can mix it how they see fit. I control the volume of my cabs off of the power amp so that it doesnt affect the DI signal at all. In the studio its the same but we use a pair of mics as well.
They usually respond really well to this since Im trying to make their job easier.

 

[BurningSkies]

As a multi-instrumentalist (including bass) and professional sound engineer working at a performing arts center, I'd like to say what I think about your comments, but I'd most likely be banned.

If I can't be found after someone's set, it's usually because I'm fixing something.

Play it loud indeed. Nothing like 1000 watts of bass to contend with. The best reason I can see to mic a bass cabinet is to flip the phase on the mic in hopes of calming it down a bit.

I always offer bassists a choice of DI, Mic or both. 90 percent of them ask for a DI out of their amp, which is usually a small combo. Just like the idiot guitarist who has to have a triple rectifier blasting and destroying the house mix, bassists who insist on bringing huge rigs aren't doing themselves or the band they are playing with any favors.

Chances are, if you're bringing anything larger than a combo bass amp into a venue that's smaller than 1000 seats, your not in the house at all. And that's because the sound engineer had no choice, if they wanted a balanced mix. What really sucks is when you have the bass completely off everywhere and it's still killing the mix.

Any competent sound person will have time to mic up a cab if needed, but that's not the real-world situation most have to deal with. In a small venue (we have a 180 seat black box and 900 seat main theater; both which qualify as a small venue), you can't just keep turning up everything to overcome the roar of a huge bass rig. So before you blame it on the sound engineer, maybe you should reconsider bringing that behemoth into the corner stage at a 90 seat venue.

If you can't get your sound without a multi-cabbed high wattage system, maybe your sound isn't worth getting.

Cool cool. I hate combo amps and tiny little ankle biter rigs that guarantee that I probably won't hear any bass unless I'm using my IEMS. In fact, this weekend we're doing a benefit and I'm pretty sure the house backline will be a 210 or 112 that will guarantee that I'll be smiling and playing and not hearing any bass except what I get from FOH. Its only a 30 minute set, so I can certainly pretend. At least a 410 would be the minimum for me.

But given that many clubs you walk into provide 810's or similar sized rig on stage, I'm really not sure that many others would agree with the combo assessment.

...also, while I'm playing a full sized cabinet setup, with a 2500w amp, I always ask house sound how my level is and if they want me to come down or not. Almost always the answer is 'you're fine...I'll let you know if I need you to turn down," but that request seldom happens. Part of the solution is having a REALLY good sounding PA-style rig. Generally as clean and clear as it is out front, I HPF in the same place as the FOH is already doing and I'm not stepping on any toes. Lots of rigs are not like that.

But what do I know. I mean, only playing all over the northeast at a rate of 100 gigs a year.

 

[purpleflyhunter]

My goal is to reduce risk or issues related to risk when it comes to live sound. More specifically, stage volume. FOH is gonna do its thing, anyway. I’ve never been able to hear FOH when I’m on stage so I just don’t ask that question anymore and quite honestly, I just don’t care.

IEMs and a good DI. Simple, controllable, contained. Once I stopped trying to outsmart the uncontrollable environment of the sound stage the sooner I was able to do my job at an elevated level.

Don’t get me wrong, I know these types of conversations are fun and need to be had. But, just like I don’t walk into someone else’s home and try to tell them how to cook, I’m just not going to tell a sound guy how to do their thing. So far, they all seem to understand what I’m dropping for them; I’m forgoing the mess associated with stage volume and purposely giving them something they can work with. As long as everyone is in the same ballpark, we can all play the same game.

They get it. I get it. I’ve not earned the right to purposefully make life more difficult for anyone. Nobody cares about “my sound” other than me (and maybe the opinionated bass-brethren glaringly standing in the back with their arms folded) and I care more about doing my job so I prioritize my efforts.

Modern audio technology has been the best thing to happen to me and my live sound simply because it’s so much friendlier to others on stage.

 

[bucephylus]

I wanted a Noble until I remembered who and what stumbled/spilled around our stages...

The Noble is small enough that you can mount it to the mic stand. But, if the gigs include knocking mic stands over, then you’re out of luck.

 

[basscapes]

As a multi-instrumentalist (including bass) and professional sound engineer working at a performing arts center, I'd like to say what I think about your comments, but I'd most likely be banned.

If I can't be found after someone's set, it's usually because I'm fixing something.

Play it loud indeed. Nothing like 1000 watts of bass to contend with. The best reason I can see to mic a bass cabinet is to flip the phase on the mic in hopes of calming it down a bit.

I always offer bassists a choice of DI, Mic or both. 90 percent of them ask for a DI out of their amp, which is usually a small combo. Just like the idiot guitarist who has to have a triple rectifier blasting and destroying the house mix, bassists who insist on bringing huge rigs aren't doing themselves or the band they are playing with any favors.

Chances are, if you're bringing anything larger than a combo bass amp into a venue that's smaller than 1000 seats, your not in the house at all. And that's because the sound engineer had no choice, if they wanted a balanced mix. What really sucks is when you have the bass completely off everywhere and it's still killing the mix.

Any competent sound person will have time to mic up a cab if needed, but that's not the real-world situation most have to deal with. In a small venue (we have a 180 seat black box and 900 seat main theater; both which qualify as a small venue), you can't just keep turning up everything to overcome the roar of a huge bass rig. So before you blame it on the sound engineer, maybe you should reconsider bringing that behemoth into the corner stage at a 90 seat venue.

If you can't get your sound without a multi-cabbed high wattage system, maybe your sound isn't worth getting.

You sir, are a rare breed! I thank you for your openness on this topic! This is NOT sarcasm- it is the honest truth from my fingers to here! I can count on one hand (and still have a few fingers left) the amount of Sound Guys who have the intelligence you have! KUDOS! That is a breath of fresh air to me!

Most of the clubs I've played in have very little in the way of a FOH, or ANY PA for that matter- the bands I've worked in have generally had to use the "brute force" method of getting their sound out to the dance floor. By that way, of course we've used an SPL meter, as well as each of us (save for the drummer) taking "the walk" out to the floor and listening. I bring a large (only ONE SVT810) rig and DO EQ for the room, as I can. My sound comes from the cab as well as the amp, effects, and of course, me as a player.

So, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods for a gig, and you happen to be the Sound Guy for one of my bands, I will probably come over and hug you, simply for KNOWING what a bass player not only wants, but NEEDS!

Yes, i have said it- I will actually WORK with a Sound Guy, providing the Sound Guy KNOWS what he's doing!

 

[basscapes]

TB is never short of opinions.
The responses have made me consider where my responsibility for my sound might me. For live situations I could consider getting a "better" DI than what my head has coming out of it. Maybe even buy a mic and keep it with me. Those are expensive options, and I'm not sure how I would test them.
The recording situation is in some ways more frustrating to me. I did sessions in 2015 and 2017, and both times I got screwed over because of a lack of motivation or knowledge. One studio was more old school, and he DI'ed me, but had the signal going through some wonderful Groove Tubes preamps and compressors. The articulation sounded great, but I really wanted a second track of a mic'ed cab to give it some depth. All that went right out the window. The guy that re-mixed it (long story) should have known about sims\IRs to get the tone I wanted.
The more recent recording was done all DI, even the guitars, and the drums were done with pads. It was quick and cheap, but the quality wasn't bad. On the guitar and drums that is. The engineer\producer didn't listen to anything I was telling him, didn't use sims\IRs, and gave me the options of being nothing by mid-clank or buried in the mix because that's all he understood. If he had used the Amplitude that I'm using now he could have dialed in what I was looking for in seconds. But no. I paid just as much as the other members to listen to them mess around for hours, while I nailed my tracks in 3 shots and ended up with something that makes me angry every time I listen to it.

A good thing to remember (after going to youtube and listening to a smattering of the Shellac recordings- I highly recommend the track "compliant" from album "Dude Incredible"), is that Steve Albini NEVER DI'd the bass amp...

 

[basscapes]

Ok I'll step out into traffic now and see what happens.

I like this DI/preamp and it is a permanent resident on my pedal board. To be clear my post is in reference to using a DI in a live setting but I have used just this pedal (and nothing else) to record into my Focusrite Scarlett interface and really liked the results. I have yet to use it in a live situation with FOH support. The settings in the picture below are not what I currently use - my son was "helping" with the knobs when I took this picture.

View attachment 3184780

Strictly seeking feedback from the live sound engineers here who have worked with this pedal - what are your observations and recommendations for this pedal? If you do not like this pedal can you please explain why and what would make some other pedal a better choice.

Not looking to start another war here - just wanting to find the best approach to working live with a DI. I use limited effects (chorus, flanger or phaser occasionally, and on rare occasion some grit) but when I do use them (sparingly) I would like for them to be present in FOH if possible.

I use one too, but only to get to level match between my Yamaha (the quieter of the two) and P-bass (the louder), which seem to be a odds with each other! Transparent boost for days, without seeming to run out of headroom!

 

[agedhorse]

An 810 or two is just fine in the hands of a player with good judgement and common sense. Volume controls turn both directions for good reason.

 

[bassboysam]

As a multi-instrumentalist (including bass) and professional sound engineer working at a performing arts center, I'd like to say what I think about your comments, but I'd most likely be banned.

If I can't be found after someone's set, it's usually because I'm fixing something.

Play it loud indeed. Nothing like 1000 watts of bass to contend with. The best reason I can see to mic a bass cabinet is to flip the phase on the mic in hopes of calming it down a bit.

I always offer bassists a choice of DI, Mic or both. 90 percent of them ask for a DI out of their amp, which is usually a small combo. Just like the idiot guitarist who has to have a triple rectifier blasting and destroying the house mix, bassists who insist on bringing huge rigs aren't doing themselves or the band they are playing with any favors.

Chances are, if you're bringing anything larger than a combo bass amp into a venue that's smaller than 1000 seats, your not in the house at all. And that's because the sound engineer had no choice, if they wanted a balanced mix. What really sucks is when you have the bass completely off everywhere and it's still killing the mix.

Any competent sound person will have time to mic up a cab if needed, but that's not the real-world situation most have to deal with. In a small venue (we have a 180 seat black box and 900 seat main theater; both which qualify as a small venue), you can't just keep turning up everything to overcome the roar of a huge bass rig. So before you blame it on the sound engineer, maybe you should reconsider bringing that behemoth into the corner stage at a 90 seat venue.

If you can't get your sound without a multi-cabbed high wattage system, maybe your sound isn't worth getting.

it depends on the venue and type of music and players. in some circles no one expects the live performance to sound perfect or "just like the CD" i've been to plenty of shows (our own and others) with an 810 bass cab in venues as small as 50 capacity and no one had trouble mixing the bands to where you could hear all the instruments.

 

[basscapes]

An 810 or two is just fine in the hands of a player with good judgement and common sense. Volume controls turn both directions for good reason.

Thank you for stating, what I think was beginning to drown here- the obvious! I'll give the room (or stage) what it needs. Hopefully FOH can translate those goods to the audience. No use explaining to the SG what you are looking for (and hopefully, he LISTENS), when all one is gonna do is crank it to 11! Of course, that may guarantee future cabinet sales!

Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

 

[micguy]

An 810 or two is just fine in the hands of a player with good judgement and common sense. Volume controls turn both directions for good reason.

I've often wondered, if you put a ratcheting master volume control on a guitar amp - where it would turn up, but not down, if anyone would notice.

 

[Dr_Benway]

You sir, are a rare breed! I thank you for your openness on this topic! This is NOT sarcasm- it is the honest truth from my fingers to here! I can count on one hand (and still have a few fingers left) the amount of Sound Guys who have the intelligence you have! KUDOS! That is a breath of fresh air to me!

Most of the clubs I've played in have very little in the way of a FOH, or ANY PA for that matter- the bands I've worked in have generally had to use the "brute force" method of getting their sound out to the dance floor. By that way, of course we've used an SPL meter, as well as each of us (save for the drummer) taking "the walk" out to the floor and listening. I bring a large (only ONE SVT810) rig and DO EQ for the room, as I can. My sound comes from the cab as well as the amp, effects, and of course, me as a player.

So, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods for a gig, and you happen to be the Sound Guy for one of my bands, I will probably come over and hug you, simply for KNOWING what a bass player not only wants, but NEEDS!

Yes, i have said it- I will actually WORK with a Sound Guy, providing the Sound Guy KNOWS what he's doing!

I also have a three piece band I play bass in. I do sound from the stage. I use a small 410 rig (250 watts) and it's more than enough to fill every club we've worked in I rarely run the amp above 3 on the volume. I don't run any effects (other than a dab of compression on the amp). I will run a DI from the bass, but just to add a touch of reverb to it in the house.

I'm blessed to get to work in a great sounding room. The way we set up the small room, all the musicians are able to hear what the house sounds like. In fact, I usually set the monitors based on what I feel the musicians need and I've rarely had them ask for more of anything. We do a jazz and blues series, as well as rock bands.
Last year we had David Bowie's pianist (Mike Garson) do a show of Bowie music.


Most of the time we have a real grand on stage (Steinway B or Yamaha C6). We don't use IEMs. Just wedges.

It works for the room. I commend you on equalizing your bass for the room.

 

[Dr_Benway]

Ok I'll step out into traffic now and see what happens.

I like this DI/preamp and it is a permanent resident on my pedal board. To be clear my post is in reference to using a DI in a live setting but I have used just this pedal (and nothing else) to record into my Focusrite Scarlett interface and really liked the results. I have yet to use it in a live situation with FOH support. The settings in the picture below are not what I currently use - my son was "helping" with the knobs when I took this picture.

View attachment 3184780

Strictly seeking feedback from the live sound engineers here who have worked with this pedal - what are your observations and recommendations for this pedal? If you do not like this pedal can you please explain why and what would make some other pedal a better choice.

Not looking to start another war here - just wanting to find the best approach to working live with a DI. I use limited effects (chorus, flanger or phaser occasionally, and on rare occasion some grit) but when I do use them (sparingly) I would like for them to be present in FOH if possible.

I haven't used it, but if it sounds good on a recording, chances are it will work fine in a live situation. The only way to find out is to give it a try.

 

[Dr_Benway]

Cool cool. I hate combo amps and tiny little ankle biter rigs that guarantee that I probably won't hear any bass unless I'm using my IEMS. In fact, this weekend we're doing a benefit and I'm pretty sure the house backline will be a 210 or 112 that will guarantee that I'll be smiling and playing and not hearing any bass except what I get from FOH. Its only a 30 minute set, so I can certainly pretend. At least a 410 would be the minimum for me.

But given that many clubs you walk into provide 810's or similar sized rig on stage, I'm really not sure that many others would agree with the combo assessment.

...also, while I'm playing a full sized cabinet setup, with a 2500w amp, I always ask house sound how my level is and if they want me to come down or not. Almost always the answer is 'you're fine...I'll let you know if I need you to turn down," but that request seldom happens. Part of the solution is having a REALLY good sounding PA-style rig. Generally as clean and clear as it is out front, I HPF in the same place as the FOH is already doing and I'm not stepping on any toes. Lots of rigs are not like that.

But what do I know. I mean, only playing all over the northeast at a rate of 100 gigs a year.

I use a 410 combo rig with a tenth of the power and have no problems. Last year the majority of bassists that came into the venue where I work ended up using it instead of their own amp. It's good that you try to work with the house sound. However, I would say that the quantity of your gigs isn't the best way to bolster your claims.

There is the old Japanese story of the artisan who claimed to have 30 years of experience, but it was really the same year over and over... times thirty.

 

[BurningSkies]

I use a 410 combo rig with a tenth of the power and have no problems. Last year the majority of bassists that came into the venue where I work ended up using it instead of their own amp. It's good that you try to work with the house sound. However, I would say that the quantity of your gigs isn't the best way to bolster your claims.

There is the old Japanese story of the artisan who claimed to have 30 years of experience, but it was really the same year over and over... times thirty.

Lol. I've pointed out regularly and repeatedly that different gigs and situations have different needs. I have a solution for my situation that works perfectly, though feel free to keep making uninformed second guesses, no matter my level of success.

I don't 'try' to work with house sound. I work with them at each and every gig. You don't get invited back if you don't.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Haven't read the whole thread. I'd just like to chime in. I have done as much or more touring than most. The stage sound for me is critical. Sound guys would prefer no bass sound on stage (except for monitors). I would nicely demand that my stage volume was higher than they might like. I'd have the band play a dynamic tune and get all of our stage volumes right. I would then tell the engineer that that is the sound I want to hear in the pa. I'd have a band member go out into the house to insure that what was coming out of the pa was similar to my on stage sound.It's not the sound engineer's fault---they have their opinions as to what a double bass (or electric) should sound like. If you are respectful and firm---you can get the sound you hear. It's funny---while I do respect amp and speaker designers--well most of them anyway---there are many that have designed a lot of stuff----none of which I like or can use. I respect people's expertise as far as technical stuff---but in practical application---a lot of the biggest "experts" miss the boat.

 

[agedhorse]

I haven't used it, but if it sounds good on a recording, chances are it will work fine in a live situation. The only way to find out is to give it a try.

I'm going to disagree here. Recording is an open loop process, nothing from the "PA" or "monitors" can bleed back into the mic whereas a live situation is a closed loop process... as soon as you close the loop, bleed becomes an issue. That's why an omni mic might be a great option for studio but not so great for live.

 

[Chickenwheels]

This seems like a 'it seemed like a good idea at the time' thing that every sound engineer on the planet would mostly hate. I can't imagine beyond smaller run your own PA/set it and forget it gigs that anyone would love having the hat & bass submixed.

Yes. My tongue was slightly in my cheek with this comment. It actually did happen accidentally once and drove our singer with IEMs nuts!