Banished to the DI Zone

[Dr_Benway]

I'm going to disagree here. Recording is an open loop process, nothing from the "PA" or "monitors" can bleed back into the mic whereas a live situation is a closed loop process... as soon as you close the loop, bleed becomes an issue. That's why an omni mic might be a great option for studio but not so great for live.

I guess I'm just spoiled by the two rooms I work in. I've never had bleed become an issue. I always take it into consideration. That's why I use mini-condensers in the grand piano with the lid closed. I'm still getting some low end bleed through the soundboard on the piano, but after working in the room for 13 years, I know how it's going to react. BTW... The piano mics are omnis. I use omnis in the pit as well. Sometimes I use the countryman B3s on strings. DPA makes a great mount for them.

Granted, it wouldn't work for a rock show. But I am blessed in not having to deal with that much, unless of course, it's my band, which is all rock.

 

[basscapes]

I guess I'm just spoiled by the two rooms I work in. I've never had bleed become an issue. I always take it into consideration. That's why I use mini-condensers in the grand piano with the lid closed. I'm still getting some low end bleed through the soundboard on the piano, but after working in the room for 13 years, I know how it's going to react. BTW... The piano mics are omnis. I use omnis in the pit as well. Sometimes I use the countryman B3s on strings. DPA makes a great mount for them.

Granted, it wouldn't work for a rock show. But I am blessed in not having to deal with that much, unless of course, it's my band, which is all rock.

I've been miked live with everything from the "lowly" SM57, RE-20, and even a Beyer M88 (!) and have always liked the FOH results- if the sound guy KNOWS his mikes, then it takes a LOT of guesswork out of how things SHOULD sound...

 

[agedhorse]

8 mics on the drums. I'm glad I'm in a small room working with Jazz and blues. I never go more than stereo OH and kick/Sn. For most Jazz groups, I don't even bother with the snare. Half the time, I don't even get a sound check, so the bands rely on my knowledge of the room and gear. I have an preset EQ curve for the mics inside the Steinway and I might tweak that according to the placement. Bass is DI/Mic (sometimes on the amp, or sometimes on the bass if it's upright). I don't use comps/gates on the drums. half the time I don't even need to EQ them. We have six monitor mixes available.

This is why I have mentioned several times that the genre and stage volume matters.

I cut my teeth on Jazz and acoustic music in general. Bleed is important where monitors are being used, and as volume increases, this becomes more important. As acoustic music evolved into louder and more electric formats, bleed from the electric sources into the acoustic instruments became more and more of a challenge.

I was the FOH audio guy for a series of nationally syndicated jazz radio programs (my part ended up being turned into around 50 one hour shows) called Riverwalk Jazz on NPR. Bleed was a very big deal, we had a 7' Steinway grand on stage and because the recording truck was listening in on each input (32 transformer isolated splits) through a studio monitoring system, it was kind of the worse of both worlds. Even the audience bleed could be heard when they got loud (independent of the audience mics). Since this was in a 1000 seat room, every mix was baselined around managing but bleed and extraneous noise.

Every gig is different, every situation is different. Some sound guys have a lot of experience over a wide range of genres and others have experience with one or two genres. With wider experience, you don't tend to make sweeping statements without qualification because you see, and maybe work with, all of the exceptions to the generalizations. That's why the answer is usually "it depends".

 

[Dr_Benway]

O

This is why I have mentioned several times that the genre and stage volume matters.

I cut my teeth on Jazz and acoustic music in general. Bleed is important where monitors are being used, and as volume increases, this becomes more important. As acoustic music evolved into louder and more electric formats, bleed from the electric sources into the acoustic instruments became more and more of a challenge.

I was the FOH audio guy for a series of nationally syndicated jazz radio programs (my part ended up being turned into around 50 one hour shows) called Riverwalk Jazz on NPR. Bleed was a very big deal, we had a 7' Steinway grand on stage and because the recording truck was listening in on each input (32 transformer isolated splits) through a studio monitoring system, it was kind of the worse of both worlds. Even the audience bleed could be heard when they got loud (independent of the audience mics). Since this was in a 1000 seat room, every mix was baselined around managing but bleed and extraneous noise.

Every gig is different, every situation is different. Some sound guys have a lot of experience over a wide range of genres and others have experience with one or two genres. With wider experience, you don't tend to make sweeping statements without qualification because you see, and maybe work with, all of the exceptions to the generalizations. That's why the answer is usually "it depends".

Yep. It certainly depends. I worked with pretty much every genre out there from Polka to Hip hop. I pretty much look at any grand piano on stage as one big microphone, because it will pickup everything around it. Not much you can do about that.

Stage volume... It wasn't always audio nirvana where I work. I have dealt with more than a few acts on the main stage who insisted their stage volume be at a level where it threatened to overwhelm the mains. For musicals, we've started to completely cover the pit. While I enjoy the sound of an acoustic orchestra rising up out of the pit and reflecting out into the hall, it's not so nice when you are trying to get the orchestra under the voices on stage, but the underscore is off in the mains and still overpowering. We are on our final week of Sweeney Todd and having the orchestra completely enclosed as been a godsend for FOH.

 

[agedhorse]

O


Yep. It certainly depends. I worked with pretty much every genre out there from Polka to Hip hop. I pretty much look at any grand piano on stage as one big microphone, because it will pickup everything around it. Not much you can do about that.

Stage volume... It wasn't always audio nirvana where I work. I have dealt with more than a few acts on the main stage who insisted their stage volume be at a level where it threatened to overwhelm the mains. For musicals, we've started to completely cover the pit. While I enjoy the sound of an acoustic orchestra rising up out of the pit and reflecting out into the hall, it's not so nice when you are trying to get the orchestra under the voices on stage, but the underscore is off in the mains and still overpowering. We are on our final week of Sweeney Todd and having the orchestra completely enclosed as been a godsend for FOH.

Yup, been there, done that!

P.S. Don't eat the meat pies

 

[Dr_Benway]

Yup, been there, done that!

P.S. Don't eat the meat pies

I won't be eating the pies, but I did take a ride down the barbershop chute. That was a serious thrill ride. It goes from about 18 feet above the deck down through the stage and into the pit. About a 25 foot drop at a sixty degree angle. If you're not prepared for it, I can imagine things breaking!

 

[agedhorse]

Hope there is a safe reciovery

I won't be eating the pies, but I did take a ride down the barbershop chute. That was a serious thrill ride. It goes from about 18 feet above the deck down through the stage and into the pit. About a 25 foot drop at a sixty degree angle. If you're not prepared for it, I can imagine things breaking!

Hope there's a safe recovery zone at the end of the chute, or the stop will be quite abrupt!

Free shaves aren't a good deal in that show either

 

[Skybone]

I'm just starting to review these. I'm not a guitar player, so I've never heard of them. Are there bass emulators as well? I'd love to be able to transition from a Ampeg rig, to a GK, to an Aguilar with the click of some buttons like guitar players do.

Apologies for the delay in replying, I've been on holiday...

All of the high-end modellers, like Helix, Kemper, Axe FX & Headrush also have bass amp models on board. I do know that the Helix models are being added to in each update, though I'm not sure about any bass-specific effects (I did hear a rumour that there was a SansAmp model added to Helix recently).

 

[alotabass]

I remember the days of micing bass cabs and without a doubt, I do not miss it. DI technology has gotten so good that my DI sound is leaps and bounds better than any mic sound I have personally experienced. It's a relief to go into a studio and get a super high-quality sound quickly. I know that's not how they did it back in the 60s but I prefer the direct sound of today personally. And when I speak of DI's I'm referring to units like ADesign, Avalon, BAE, Teergarden and Noble. Not into modelers on bass.

 

[selowitch]

I have used DIs by Switchcraft and Markbass with very satisfactory results and no fuss.

 

[Wood and Wire]

(I did hear a rumour that there was a SansAmp model added to Helix recently).

A modeller, that models another modeller, modelling an amp that the initial modeller already models?

Bizarro!

 

[gillento]

I have worked long on "my sound" through a pedal board (RMI/Lehle IQ-DI & Tech21 VT).
I have done 24 channel live recordings of my band showing the DI sound and the miked cab sound.
The DI is 99% there...... so why bother with anything else....

 

[alotabass]

I have worked long on "my sound" through a pedal board (RMI/Lehle IQ-DI & Tech21 VT).
I have done 24 channel live recordings of my band showing the DI sound and the miked cab sound.
The DI is 99% there...... so why bother with anything else....

Agreed. I run bass into a Cali 76 Compressor then Pensa Preamp then Noble DI to FOH or IO DAW and the sound is always where I need it to be. I don't feel like its lacking anything. I've been running this signal chain for over 10 years now. I switch up the Comp-Pre-DI units but all the units are high end and always sound amazing.

 

[JimmyM]

That's nice that you guys have your DI lines sorted. So do I. But so what? Why is that any reason to deny someone who wants his/her cab mic'ed a cab mic?

 

[agedhorse]

That's nice that you guys have your DI lines sorted. So do I. But so what? Why is that any reason to deny someone who wants his/her cab mic'ed a cab mic?

How does a FOH guy reconcile things when the mic'd cabinet through a big PA doesn't represent the stage sound, or the sound the bass player is really trying to achieve? Especially if he has to eq the crap out of the bass rig for a stage sound that works for him (which may be different than what he would like IF HE HAD THE OPTION) in the house?

 

[JimmyM]

How does a FOH guy reconcile things when the mic'd cabinet through a big PA doesn't represent the stage sound, or the sound the bass player is really trying to achieve? Especially if he has to eq the crap out of the bass rig for a stage sound that works for him (which may be different than what he would like IF HE HAD THE OPTION) in the house?

You're assuming that it's impossible to duplicate and that the bassist doesn't know what he/she wants. It's really not that hard to reconcile the two. Plus maybe the bass player really wants the sound that you find abhorrent. Guys like Entwistle, Squire, and Fieldy come to mind as bassists who have/had sounds that sound techs have found abhorrent but it works for them. And plenty of bassists have very pleasing sounds through their cabs that if you duplicate them in the house with the mic, they come up a winner. My sound was especially great for my band in the house, and the only complaint I ever got was once in a while someone would ask me to turn my amp up. Here's an example from a few years ago...audience recording but pretty accurate...pardon the cheesy jackets...not my idea:

 

[agedhorse]

I didn't say that the goal was to get something different than the bass player wanted, but sometimes micing the cabinet eq's for his near field stage sound is not what they want out in the house. I've had players sit with me at FOH and play while I worked on their tone with them (harder said than done with the delay). Very often, I'm able to "nail their tone" better than they can do from the stage. Typical comment is "I've been trying for than but can't get it out of my stage rig", something that's much easier to do than you might think. That's where a lot of the voicing choices came from on the Subways, by listening to what players would choose IF they could. Of course, with the limitations of any stage rig, it's not going to be identical, nor their tone IF they could have it their ideal way.

 

[alotabass]

That's nice that you guys have your DI lines sorted. So do I. But so what? Why is that any reason to deny someone who wants his/her cab mic'ed a cab mic?

Definitely not denying anyone what they want to do. Just saying in my case there is no going back. Love my DI sound. Many times my stage amp is set to a sound that is less bassy and more mid-forward so I can hear my notes better but that may not be the sound I want going to FOH. So, in this case, the DI setup works really well giving the FOH a great sound to work with while my stage amp is set for my personal needs.

 

[JimmyM]

I didn't say that the goal was to get something different than the bass player wanted, but sometimes micing the cabinet eq's for his near field stage sound is not what they want out in the house. I've had players sit with me at FOH and play while I worked on their tone with them (harder said than done with the delay). Very often, I'm able to "nail their tone" better than they can do from the stage. Typical comment is "I've been trying for than but can't get it out of my stage rig", something that's much easier to do than you might think. That's where a lot of the voicing choices came from on the Subways, by listening to what players would choose IF they could. Of course, with the limitations of any stage rig, it's not going to be identical, nor their tone IF they could have it their ideal way.

All I ever had to say to a sound tech to get them to sound identical is, "If you match the sound I get from my amp with the sound you're getting out of the mic, that generally works best for us, with the usual allowances for room modes." Most of the time I couldn't tell where the amp ended and the PA began.

 

[Wasnex]

I didn't say that the goal was to get something different than the bass player wanted, but sometimes micing the cabinet eq's for his near field stage sound is not what they want out in the house. I've had players sit with me at FOH and play while I worked on their tone with them (harder said than done with the delay). Very often, I'm able to "nail their tone" better than they can do from the stage. Typical comment is "I've been trying for than but can't get it out of my stage rig", something that's much easier to do than you might think. That's where a lot of the voicing choices came from on the Subways, by listening to what players would choose IF they could. Of course, with the limitations of any stage rig, it's not going to be identical, nor their tone IF they could have it their ideal way.

Lot of wisdom in this post that many instrumentalists either refuse to accept or fail to grasp. In my experience, it is rare that anyone can get everything they want in a live acoustic environment without seriously compromising someone else's experience. Unfortunately we often deal with multiple personalities who think the world should revolved around them.

Many instrumentalists don't have a very clear understanding of how live audio works or how complicated it is. And many audio techs don't have any realistic perspective about what a player's actual monitoring needs are. Without common knowledge on these matters, it is difficult to negotiate the necessary compromises; especially when trust is low to begin with.

I like playing around with a looper pedal and I find it pretty interesting how our perception of our tone and balance changes from when we are listening to when we are playing. A looper pedal might be a useful tool if you want to work with a player to dial in his/her tone at FOH. The idea is to dial in the tone from their "listener's" perspective. Some digital boards have built in multi-track recording capabilities as well that could possibly be used to dial things in. Of course, playback will not include the stage wash.