Banished to the DI Zone

[Chickenwheels]

As a multi-instrumentalist (including bass) and professional sound engineer working at a performing arts center, I'd like to say what I think about your comments, but I'd most likely be banned.

If I can't be found after someone's set, it's usually because I'm fixing something.

Play it loud indeed. Nothing like 1000 watts of bass to contend with. The best reason I can see to mic a bass cabinet is to flip the phase on the mic in hopes of calming it down a bit.

I always offer bassists a choice of DI, Mic or both. 90 percent of them ask for a DI out of their amp, which is usually a small combo. Just like the idiot guitarist who has to have a triple rectifier blasting and destroying the house mix, bassists who insist on bringing huge rigs aren't doing themselves or the band they are playing with any favors.

Chances are, if you're bringing anything larger than a combo bass amp into a venue that's smaller than 1000 seats, your not in the house at all. And that's because the sound engineer had no choice, if they wanted a balanced mix. What really sucks is when you have the bass completely off everywhere and it's still killing the mix.

Any competent sound person will have time to mic up a cab if needed, but that's not the real-world situation most have to deal with. In a small venue (we have a 180 seat black box and 900 seat main theater; both which qualify as a small venue), you can't just keep turning up everything to overcome the roar of a huge bass rig. So before you blame it on the sound engineer, maybe you should reconsider bringing that behemoth into the corner stage at a 90 seat venue.

If you can't get your sound without a multi-cabbed high wattage system, maybe your sound isn't worth getting.

Interesting stuff.
I find engineers usually are telling the guitarist to turn down at all the club venues I do. Such as every club gig I do, every time.
I find the chain of “too loud” usually goes: Guitar, followed closely after by drummer, then vocal wedges go up, at this stage keys are gone, I give up on BVs, then I might turn up a bit.
I do a small club with backline (SVT, 810) and sadly FOH spill is so loud it’s needed, along with Hearos. Everywhere is “special” and “different”...

 

[agedhorse]

From a sound guy's perspective, I might re-title the thread "Bassplayer gets promoted to the DI zone"

 

[MultiScaleMale]

From a sound guy's perspective, I might re-title the thread "Bassplayer gets promoted to the DI zone"

My Subway stack sounds phenomenal and I love playing through it, but if I can throw a bass on my back and plug into a DI, I'll survive. #gettinglazy

 

[dougjwray]

A slight digression...

Who among us hasn't had this kind of soundcheck (99% of the time involving a DI)? I never know whether to feel complimented or rudely neglected...

Bass drum (a few minutes)
Snare (a few minutes)
Toms (a few minutes)
"Now play around the whole kit" (a minute or so)

Guitar 1 (a few minutes)
Guitar 2 (a few minutes)
Guitar 3 (a few minutes)

"Play the bass? OK, great."

"Can I hear some lead vocals?" (15 minutes)

etc., etc.

 

[MordBass]

A slight digression...

Who among us hasn't had this kind of soundcheck (99% of the time involving a DI)? I never know whether to feel complimented or rudely neglected...

Bass drum (a few minutes)
Snare (a few minutes)
Toms (a few minutes)
"Now play around the whole kit" (a minute or so)

Guitar 1 (a few minutes)
Guitar 2 (a few minutes)
Guitar 3 (a few minutes)

"Play the bass? OK, great."

"Can I hear some lead vocals?" (15 minutes)

etc., etc.

Dude.... spot.... on..... It's unreal.

 

[Chickenwheels]

Ok I'll step out into traffic now and see what happens.

I like this DI/preamp and it is a permanent resident on my pedal board. To be clear my post is in reference to using a DI in a live setting but I have used just this pedal (and nothing else) to record into my Focusrite Scarlett interface and really liked the results. I have yet to use it in a live situation with FOH support. The settings in the picture below are not what I currently use - my son was "helping" with the knobs when I took this picture.

View attachment 3184780

Strictly seeking feedback from the live sound engineers here who have worked with this pedal - what are your observations and recommendations for this pedal? If you do not like this pedal can you please explain why and what would make some other pedal a better choice.

Not looking to start another war here - just wanting to find the best approach to working live with a DI. I use limited effects (chorus, flanger or phaser occasionally, and on rare occasion some grit) but when I do use them (sparingly) I would like for them to be present in FOH if possible.

My duo/trio gig rig is one of these into a QSC K8 for fretless or Double Bass. I love it. You have the choice to send a none eq signal to FOH which is handy. I found it a bit noisy unless run off a battery, though.

 

[Chickenwheels]

The Noble is small enough that you can mount it to the mic stand. But, if the gigs include knocking mic stands over, then you’re out of luck.

I live in hope but anticipate the worst..!

 

[Chickenwheels]

A slight digression...

Who among us hasn't had this kind of soundcheck (99% of the time involving a DI)? I never know whether to feel complimented or rudely neglected...

Bass drum (a few minutes)
Snare (a few minutes)
Toms (a few minutes)
"Now play around the whole kit" (a minute or so)

Guitar 1 (a few minutes)
Guitar 2 (a few minutes)
Guitar 3 (a few minutes)

"Play the bass? OK, great."

"Can I hear some lead vocals?" (15 minutes)

etc., etc.

Sound check on Tuesday. After every other thing has been checked:
“Why aren’t you playing the bass?...oh, is it DIed? Where’s the cable? (etc)”
Lol.

 

[agedhorse]

I typically spend no more than 30 seconds on each input to get things in the zone. Possible exceptions might be acoustic guitar, mandolin, grand piano or other instruments where there's a big acoustic component. Add a little time for where I'm mixing monitors from FOH and need to set up multiple mixes.

Sure drums will take a little longer, there's going to be 8 or so mics, I might need to set & tune gates so say 5 minutes. I rarely spend more than 30 seconds on guitars (especially if I know they are going to be so loud that I'm going to struggle with them overpowering the mix anyway), and bass is going to run between 30 seconds and a minute depending on if there's a DI only or DI + mic, and if I'm going to need a comp on the input(s). I will typically spend a couple minutes per vocal, much of that sending around to the various monitor mixes if need be. I'm also setting comps and FX.

Line check FOR THE TYPES OF ACTS AND EGO LEVELS that I deal with go quickly and efficiently. I don't play favorites, I don't need to spend a lot of time on any one input (unless they are having problems they need sorting out) and prefer to move onto sound check where everything is within the context of the mix.

 

[JimmyM]

A slight digression...

Who among us hasn't had this kind of soundcheck (99% of the time involving a DI)? I never know whether to feel complimented or rudely neglected...

Bass drum (a few minutes)
Snare (a few minutes)
Toms (a few minutes)
"Now play around the whole kit" (a minute or so)

Guitar 1 (a few minutes)
Guitar 2 (a few minutes)
Guitar 3 (a few minutes)

"Play the bass? OK, great."

"Can I hear some lead vocals?" (15 minutes)

etc., etc.

I don't mind that so much. Bass usually takes hearing the whole band together to dial in correctly. So let them make sure they have signal and get a ballpark, and then tweak during soundcheck songs, and I don't take it personally that they took a while for drums. It is, after all, several different instruments with a lot of mics that need to blend together properly. As long as they realize that the most important signal on any stage is the vocal mic for whoever's singing lead and not the bass drum, it usually works out well for my bands.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Wait, I thought what people were complaining about was the bass bleeding into other mics, not other instruments bleeding into the bass mic.

That could also be an issue, if the room is poorly treated, or the sound guy sucks, or there’s just no way to properly place other mics, as has been mentioned above. I’ve never run sound in a stadium, but i have no freaking idea how places like the LA Forum can be so absurdly loud, and not feed back; i suspect they keep mics to a minimum. The more mics you have open, the more things can go wrong, so instruments that sound good direct, like bass guitar, are helpful. I was an early adopter of amp modeling and high quality direct boxes and direct amp outputs, because of my understanding of the sound guy’s plight, and my desire to still have some control over my sound. Coincidentally, as much as I’m happy to send a direct signal to FOH, I don’t like using in-ears, hate playing ampless unless there are excellent monitors and side fills. I’d rather use amps and musicians’ earplugs. So I’m considerate to sound guys, but not too considerate

 

[Wisebass]

Hi Andy, hi Jimmy

"Bassplayer gets promoted to the DI zone"

No, please not Andy! I don' t want amp designers to loose their jobs!

It is, after all, several different instruments with a lot of mics that need to blend together properly.

When all musicans respect each other and stay in their "sonic space" to get a good band sound,

FOH can do a good job! (easy or not depends on the room only IME)

A sound engineer, that has to calm a volume battle between bedroom players can' t.

Line check FOR THE TYPES OF ACTS AND EGO LEVELS

Maybe we need something like an "ego level select switch" (or blend) with a filter on our amps,

starting at "humble" and going to *****? (would be great for guitarists too)


greetings

Wise

 

[BurningSkies]

I'm going to disagree here. Recording is an open loop process, nothing from the "PA" or "monitors" can bleed back into the mic whereas a live situation is a closed loop process... as soon as you close the loop, bleed becomes an issue. That's why an omni mic might be a great option for studio but not so great for live.

Yep. I had one perplexed hand drummer for a while who showed up with really beautiful and expensive (studio) sensitive condenser mics for his setup. Totally wrong application on a live and loud stage and the stage let everyone know.

 

[BurningSkies]

A slight digression...

Who among us hasn't had this kind of soundcheck (99% of the time involving a DI)? I never know whether to feel complimented or rudely neglected...

Bass drum (a few minutes)
Snare (a few minutes)
Toms (a few minutes)
"Now play around the whole kit" (a minute or so)

Guitar 1 (a few minutes)
Guitar 2 (a few minutes)
Guitar 3 (a few minutes)

"Play the bass? OK, great."

"Can I hear some lead vocals?" (15 minutes)

etc., etc.

I'm generally ok with this. The kit is it's own thing, lots of acoustics involved, lots of bleed and resonances to handle. Our guitars usually also go very quickly, clean tone, lead tone, loudest you're going to play, etc.

My bass DI tone is pretty tailor-ready. I'm not using the DI from the milkbox at the side of the stage though. Its the same one I recorded with and has been in many studios. So really if he eq's flat, gets a level, I'm sure that most sound engineers will have be on point by half way through the first song. Though sometimes there's a propensity to roll off my tone a bit too early in the mids/highs.

Spend all the time you want on vocals...there's a reason they're at the front of the stage. The number one thing that kills a live set is really horrible vocal mix. We can tell on stage by how an audience reacts if we have a terrible vocal mix and/or a poor general mix.

 

[basscapes]

I also have a three piece band I play bass in. I do sound from the stage. I use a small 410 rig (250 watts) and it's more than enough to fill every club we've worked in I rarely run the amp above 3 on the volume. I don't run any effects (other than a dab of compression on the amp). I will run a DI from the bass, but just to add a touch of reverb to it in the house.

I'm blessed to get to work in a great sounding room. The way we set up the small room, all the musicians are able to hear what the house sounds like. In fact, I usually set the monitors based on what I feel the musicians need and I've rarely had them ask for more of anything. We do a jazz and blues series, as well as rock bands.
Last year we had David Bowie's pianist (Mike Garson) do a show of Bowie music.


Most of the time we have a real grand on stage (Steinway B or Yamaha C6). We don't use IEMs. Just wedges.

It works for the room. I commend you on equalizing your bass for the room.

You are truly blessed to have a great sounding room to play in.

There have been some incredible rooms that I have played in, as well as some real dogs.

Those dogs make the great rooms a godsend to play in!

 

[basscapes]

A slight digression...

Who among us hasn't had this kind of soundcheck (99% of the time involving a DI)? I never know whether to feel complimented or rudely neglected...

Bass drum (a few minutes)
Snare (a few minutes)
Toms (a few minutes)
"Now play around the whole kit" (a minute or so)

Guitar 1 (a few minutes)
Guitar 2 (a few minutes)
Guitar 3 (a few minutes)

"Play the bass? OK, great."

"Can I hear some lead vocals?" (15 minutes)

etc., etc.

Too many times!

That kind of sound check is directly related to the Joe's Eats and Drinks comment I made earlier- they are there to just babysit a board, don't really care HOW the bass player sounds (or the band, for that matter!).

 

[dougjwray]

I don't mind that so much. Bass usually takes hearing the whole band together to dial in correctly. So let them make sure they have signal and get a ballpark, and then tweak during soundcheck songs, and I don't take it personally that they took a while for drums. It is, after all, several different instruments with a lot of mics that need to blend together properly. As long as they realize that the most important signal on any stage is the vocal mic for whoever's singing lead and not the bass drum, it usually works out well for my bands.

I agree with all of that. When you look at it logically, it makes sense. I think I just get amused by the contrast.
Also, the spectacle plays into the stereotypes regarding the members of a band-- no one is surprised when the lead vocalist asks for 20 different tweaks of monitor level and EQ (too loud, too soft, more reverb, less reverb, more guitar, less guitar...), and the bassist is the person who is "just there, in the back."

 

[Dr_Benway]

You are truly blessed to have a great sounding room to play in.

There have been some incredible rooms that I have played in, as well as some real dogs.

Those dogs make the great rooms a godsend to play in!

I don't actually play there. I am the guy "baby-sitting" the board

 

[Dr_Benway]

I typically spend no more than 30 seconds on each input to get things in the zone. Possible exceptions might be acoustic guitar, mandolin, grand piano or other instruments where there's a big acoustic component. Add a little time for where I'm mixing monitors from FOH and need to set up multiple mixes.

Sure drums will take a little longer, there's going to be 8 or so mics, I might need to set & tune gates so say 5 minutes. I rarely spend more than 30 seconds on guitars (especially if I know they are going to be so loud that I'm going to struggle with them overpowering the mix anyway), and bass is going to run between 30 seconds and a minute depending on if there's a DI only or DI + mic, and if I'm going to need a comp on the input(s). I will typically spend a couple minutes per vocal, much of that sending around to the various monitor mixes if need be. I'm also setting comps and FX.

Line check FOR THE TYPES OF ACTS AND EGO LEVELS that I deal with go quickly and efficiently. I don't play favorites, I don't need to spend a lot of time on any one input (unless they are having problems they need sorting out) and prefer to move onto sound check where everything is within the context of the mix.

8 mics on the drums. I'm glad I'm in a small room working with Jazz and blues. I never go more than stereo OH and kick/Sn. For most Jazz groups, I don't even bother with the snare. Half the time, I don't even get a sound check, so the bands rely on my knowledge of the room and gear. I have an preset EQ curve for the mics inside the Steinway and I might tweak that according to the placement. Bass is DI/Mic (sometimes on the amp, or sometimes on the bass if it's upright). I don't use comps/gates on the drums. half the time I don't even need to EQ them. We have six monitor mixes available.

 

[Turnaround]

How did this happen to bass players? How did we almost all universally get shoved into the DI zone while our guitar playing brethren still get mic'ed without question?
I know this isn't a new thing. When I was a young buck reading paper copies of Bass Player in the 90s it was common knowledge that you were going to get DI'ed live and in recording sessions. I didn't question it at the time; it was just how things were.
But how did we get here? As much as people on TB love old recordings, where they mic'ed the cabs, no one bats an eye at having that part of our tone taken away from us.
Live, mic'ing a guitar cab just happens. No discussion. Bass players have to fight to get mic'ed, sometimes even bringing their own mic to try to coerce the sound engineer into doing it.
Hours are spent tweaking cab placement, selecting mics, and placing the mic at recording studios. Bass? "Here's cable, just plug into the board."

Was it the transition from tube heads to SS heads? Was it the advent of full digital recording?

I think it depends what is defining your sound. For me the sound I want is in the bass - the amp and speakers I use are as high-fidelity as I can afford so as not to colour the signal from the bass. Mic-ing my cab would actually be counter-productive.