Bar Manager Refused to Pay Us! Now what?

[stflbn]

I hate threads that ask for people's opinions, have 5 pages of posts, and the OP never once acknowledges that he's still reading and participating in the discussion.

OP probably noticed that majority were critical of him, so he went and is now complaining to someone else how their ineptness cost them money.

Edit: OP last activity was yesterday at 10:08... 3 hours after starting thread and thread had almost 30 replies by that time. I think he probably got the point. (meaning... he probably went off peeing or breaking/stealing something owned by the bar and is now in jail rather than listen to experienced people here)

 

[Meyatch]

or illegal but... file an anonamus complaint to the police that there serving minors!

I'm pretty sure this is a joke, but just in case that is seriously uncool.

Bars can and do lose the ability to operate when stuff like this happens, not to mention the bartender will almost surely lose their job.

 

[grovest]

I wouldn't press it with the manager, you have more to lose than gain. If anything, I'd try to smooth things over with him and acknowledge that you didn't meet his request. If you want to keep the same drummer, and he can't learn to play his kit softer, maybe he can play a bongo or calves or something when less volume is needed. Please consider filling out your profile if you plan on staying involved with TB....

 

[denhou1974]

The bar still owes you some money. You're a contractor and you did perform some of the work that you were hired to do. He should prorate your pay.

Then, you need to get a hold on your volume control.

 

[Arthur Strand]

Don't play bars if you can help it. In UK us Musicians Union members can get the rep to chase the money. Any professional has a contract for each job and few of these will be bars whose purpose is to sell aloholic drinks whether there is live music/entertainment or not. Starting out can be like this. Loud and too loud is no good. A sensible balance that suits the acoustics is the professional way. The drummer is no musician if he just thrashes the kit with no regard to the volume and balance. You must be young and inexperienced. Ignore the drinks while playing and improve everything. then there will be fewer problems. Try other drummers.

 

[Bassorama57]

I hate threads that ask for people's opinions, have 5 pages of posts, and the OP never once acknowledges that he's still reading and participating in the discussion.

+1 If each of us considered our time worth a nickle, we've already spend way over the total $350. Bad bar scene; probably could never have turned down enough for the accoustics ("bomb shelter") in there, even if the drumer was equipped with only brushes. Accoustic quartet maybe for that place.

 

[kraigo]

I'm a drummer. I've been in a lot of situations where expectations for low volume out of a drumset were unrealistic. Those gigs are never fun. I can play moderately quietly. A band with horns does tend to generate a certain amount of volume.

Having said that, I tend to agree with Dave and a lot of other posters: If you were too loud and you think people were leaving because of it (how can anyone say with certainty why they were leaving? You can only go by norms and deviations from them, really), I wouldn't go after him and in fact I would strongly consider apologizing.

If you think the drummer is too loud and it is harming the band, consider getting a new one. This is not advice I give lightly. I tend to be of the "drums are a loud instrument, get over it" school of thought.

If I were advising the drummer, I'd suggest a pair or two of Peter Erskine's signature drum stick and medium thin crash cymbals. Leave the massive sticks and heavy cymbals for the metal guys. Lighter (single ply - like Remo Ambassadors) heads and cymbals open up easier without a heavy thump.

Good luck.

KO

Hmm...

This is not legal advice, but IMHO, you owe him an apology. He gave you two warnings before he kicked you out. Trust me on this; you *do not* want a reputation of suing clubs who stiff you.

Were you playing at your normal volume level or lower?

$0 is not acceptable because you provided what you agreed to provide (your standard musical services at your normal volume), and the fact that your band's normal volume was too loud for this particular club is arguably their problem, not yours. If they want quiet, they should have hired a jazz trio. Think of it this way: You don't hire Metallica and then get mad when they blow the roof off the place. You also shouldn't get mad if you hire a 6-piece electric band for a bar and they are too loud to talk over, assuming they are not playing extra-loud on purpose.

On the other hand, a professional, competent drummer (and your band as a whole) should be able to use dynamics to suit the room, within reason, given the limitations of the lineup and the genre. If you performed less than professionally (drummer included: he is part of your band and represents all of you; if your collective fault if your drummer is too loud, so don't single him out), you should not be entitled to the whole $350.

Consult one of your attorney buddies, and see if s/he thinks it's a good idea to write a letter offering a settlement of $175, considering it's both your fault that you were behaving unprofessionally (too loud), and the bar's choice to stop the show early. (A bar deciding to cancel or end a show early ordinarily means that you still get paid the full agreed-upon figure, unless your contract says otherwise.)

Personally, I would apologize in the letter for playing too loudly to suit the room, but still explain why I think $175 is fair instead of the full $350, considering that you provided your normal services as agreed, and they are the ones who made the choice to ask you to stop early, knowing that sans a contract stating otherwise, they're still responsible for paying you as agreed.

P.S. Next time, either use an electronic drum set (I own a six-piece Roland TD-6SXT, even though I don't play drums, for this reason), or get a different drummer. Also, have one of your lawyer buddies draft you a performance agreement, so you don't have this problem again. You should *never, never, never* gig without a contract. The fact that you have lawyer connections makes this even more inexcusable. Frankly, if you get any money from this at all, be grateful

 

[HEADLE]

Don't play bars if you can help it.

I'm curious as to where you would have us play? In the US of A we play in bars. No flame intended.

H

 

[Lesfunk]

Nursing homes?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Bands don't get hired to keep people in a venue or attract people to a venue. They get hired to play their music. The venue owners are hoping the first sentence will be a byproduct.

If the first sentence is a by product, what is the main reason bands get hired by a venue?



The OP's band learned a $350 lesson. I'd hope.

I had a similar situation, the owner asked us to turn down multiple times. After maybe the fourth time he said if he had to ask us again, we were gone. This all happened in the first set.


We took a break. While my personal volume was well within what he asked for, the remaining members got indignant about being told how loud to play. I waiting a few minutes before chiming in. Then I told them that if we got kicked out because they couldn't follow a simple request, they would have to come up with my money because I was doing what the owner asked.

The owner was very pleased with the remaining sets.


It's business and unfortunately too many musicians are simply to childish to see that.

 

[ashtray]

Played a gig once for a private party held at a restaurant. When we went to set up, they put us in a "small" room with wooden floors and a low wooden ceiling. Acoustics were amazing - which was *bad* for us being a 5 piece rock band! Person who booked us obviously didn't know what kind of band they were booking - or were just desperate to get entertainment for the event.

We set up the PA - put the mains on the floor, don't set up any monitors, and keep the volume low. We're too loud. We make some adjustments, drummer does a light jazz thing on his kit, 1 guitarist starts playing chords and I do a simple bass line. It grooves ok for background music - but that's not who were are. (other 2 guys just sat out too)

We go into our "light song set" and it's too loud (we're told again to turn down).

The acoustics in the small room were so great, you could have played an electronic drum set *not plugged in* and it would be loud enough! We did the best we could with what we had (towels over the drum heads, etc), and in the end got paid for the gig. We did work with them as much as possible (even to the point of playing light instrumental jazz background music - which was more appropriate for the event!) - and overall, we were as professional as possible.

When you're hired to do something - anything (mow a lawn, play a gig, do plumbing work, etc) - it's important to be professional and either work with the person paying you for the service, or do not take the job. In a band, you're hired to entertain people - you're serving the people. If you are noticing you are chasing people away from the bar, then you're doing the exact opposite of the intended purpose, and a professional would change their ways as much as possible to fix the situation.

(in the case of the private party, the entire band should have been behind closed doors - that would have helped the volume problem, and nothing else.)

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I tend to be of the "drums are a loud instrument, get over it" school of thought.

No disrespect but with that type of mentality how do you get gigs?

Of all the drummers that I know and work with, that statement would be an insult.

Some times a drummer has to play like they're playing on cotton if needed and if not I no longer work with them.

 

[ashtray]

As a follow up - I think a lot of musicians are delusional. When they go to see their favorite musician play live, they don't care (or can't complain) if the volume is too loud. They're paying for the opportunity to see *enter name* play live!

Then when their band goes to play a bar, they get the same mentality - the people coming to see them play are paying for the privilege of seeing them play live music. This is only true in 1% of the cases. If a band is booked by a bar to play, the band is not the reason for the show. The bar generating income is the reason, and they are willing to share some of that income with the band for providing this service. The better the band, the more people might come listen and the more money the bar makes - which then in turn means the more money a band can make.

Another thing is to bring your own crowd - bars like that. You're bringing *them* business. They know if they hire you, there will be people in there paying for drinks and food. If you bring no people, and play too loud (or badly, or offend people, or play the wrong style of music for the establishment) then the bar makes no money, and the entire reason to book you as a band is gone.

Once a band realizes that the gig they are planning and are all excited about playing is NOT about them, then it's easier to assume the role as "entertainer" and just do your job.

(and as a followup to this - if you do this well, and the bar owner likes what you do for him - you could be on a regular rotation at the bar playing there every month. Do this at 4 different area bars, and you can get regular paying gigs every weekend. Then it snowballs - you start to get hired to play private events, and get known in the town a little, and then you play larger town events - fairs, etc - and pretty soon you're turning down offers to play b/c you're booked solid. It all starts by being professional, and recognizing your role.)

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm a drummer. I've been in a lot of situations where expectations for low volume out of a drumset were unrealistic. Those gigs are never fun. I can play moderately quietly. A band with horns does tend to generate a certain amount of volume.

Having said that, I tend to agree with Dave and a lot of other posters: If you were too loud and you think people were leaving because of it (how can anyone say with certainty why they were leaving? You can only go by norms and deviations from them, really), I wouldn't go after him and in fact I would strongly consider apologizing.

If you think the drummer is too loud and it is harming the band, consider getting a new one. This is not advice I give lightly. I tend to be of the "drums are a loud instrument, get over it" school of thought.

If I were advising the drummer, I'd suggest a pair or two of Peter Erskine's signature drum stick and medium thin crash cymbals. Leave the massive sticks and heavy cymbals for the metal guys. Lighter (single ply - like Remo Ambassadors) heads and cymbals open up easier without a heavy thump.

Good luck.

KO

I disagree with the unrealistic volume thing. You can play as loud as possible and then you can not play at all. In between there's an infinite number of volumes you can acheive.


Drums are a loud instrument if that's the only way the drummer knows how to play. No offense to any drummers. I know it's possible to burn even while playing pianissimo. Some of the best audience responses I've had was after playing with guys who had a lot to say while in spaces you could hear a pin drop.

The thing that many musicians don't get is that just because you start off at a lower volume doesn't mean you'll have to stay there all night.

On the flip side...
I've also played gigs where people play too damn loud in spite of the venue. Last Friday an old school R&B band I work with played at the Cocoran Gallery of Art for a sorority. Acoustics hell... marble walls and floors, long narrow room, 50' glass ceilings. Yeesh. Snare drum sounded like a shotgun, kick was mic'ed ( I have no I dea why) and sounded like those T Rex footsteps in Jurassic Park. Guitrar was way too loud as were the keys. So what did we do? Muddle through. It sucked but the check cleared.

The sorority loved it. I hated it. I got paid. That's life.

 

[mister-o]

As a "bass bystander" of sorts (never been in a gigging band...yet!) I want to thank the experienced TBers who have posted in this thread. I've learned a lot just by reading here about how to act professionally as a musician (and how to avoid appearing unprofessional).

 

[RustyAxe]

I hate threads that ask for people's opinions, have 5 pages of posts, and the OP never once acknowledges that he's still reading and participating in the discussion.

He's either pissed off, or embarrassed. He should be neither ... just grateful for getting some good advice.

 

[AlembicPlayer]

As a "bass bystander" of sorts (never been in a gigging band...yet!) I want to thank the experienced TBers who have posted in this thread. I've learned a lot just by reading here about how to act professionally as a musician (and how to avoid appearing unprofessional).

Originally Posted by JimmyM http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6673553#post6673553
I hate threads that ask for people's opinions, have 5 pages of posts, and the OP never once acknowledges that he's still reading and participating in the discussion.

I understand what you mean, but I think the above post by mister-o speaks about (hopefully) what these discussion forums are all about... with or without the OP's participation. Sometimes you just need a good catalyst to get things going and then it takes on a life of it's own.

but yes, hate away!

 

[Toshiro]

He's either pissed off, or embarrassed. He should be neither ... just grateful for getting some good advice.

Or maybe he's not a forum hound like most of us.

 

[ForSix]

Bands don't get hired to keep people in a venue or attract people to a venue. They get hired to play their music. The venue owners are hoping the first sentence will be a byproduct.

What alternate universe do you live in?

This thread is obviously a joke.

 

[nortonrider]

This thread is interesting, it started off with the typical kneejerk type of wisecracking posts that are expected from the guys who never really had to try to make the customers happy:

Bust out the windows
Pee on something
do his mom
fire the drummer
Stink bombs
smash the liquor
Etc...

And many post from those who have actually exhibited a little rational thought into a solution:

Drum shield
brushes
electronic drums
turn it down
ETC...

Not making any judgements here, just saying that it was interesting seeing who posted what and what camp they fall in concerning actually giving the customer his moneys worth.

That is all.