Baseball season 2007

[dangnewt]

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good article about bonds prior to steroids. it is unffortunate about the steroid possibility, he was one fo the greatest players of all time without them.

That is what makes the story all the more tragic.

I just finished the book "Juicing the Game - Drugs, Power, and the Fight for the Soul of Major League Baseball" by Howard Bryant. It tells the story from a variety of angles and there is plenty of blame to go around. Fair warning - it is a little depressing because there is plenty of blame to spread around (the players, the players union (even Marvin Miller who IMHO was right on so many issues was very wrong on this issue), the owners, managers (Tony LaRussa comes off especially bad), the commissioner, sportswriters, the federal government). A big piece of the story is that since it was generally in the interest of the owners and the union to not deal with the issue, they didn't.

Frank Thomas and Bob Costas were among the few who took a strong stand at the time.

Giambi comes off a little better than most of the other suspected users, he is not as good of a liar. He also has a pretty good agent. Arn Tellem deleted all references to steroids from clauses concerning the potential voiding of the contract.

 

[burk48237]

Braves dropped it today in the bottom of the 10th.
I don't know if I agree with 100% of the All-Star selections, but they pretty much follow my voting.

As a Tiger fan I think they did pretty good, it helps to have the manager. The only Tiger I thought was missed was Granderson. But on the other hand you could argue against Pudge starting. The other Tigers were shoe in's. Ordoniaz looks like the MVP at the half way point and Polonco may have the best bat control of any hitter in the game.

 

[dangnewt]

As a Tiger fan I think they did pretty good, it helps to have the manager. The only Tiger I thought was missed was Granderson. But on the other hand you could argue against Pudge starting. The other Tigers were shoe in's. Ordoniaz looks like the MVP at the half way point and Polonco may have the best bat control of any hitter in the game.

Speaking of the manager's perks - who does he start?

Verlander or Beckett or Haran or Santana or Sabathia or Lackey - a decent case could be made for any of them.

Meche is having a good year with a struggling team but I don't think he is quite at the level of the others.

 

[iScott]

Go Braves!!! Lost a nail-biter today. But we ARE gonna take the East!

 

[SoComSurfing]

Go Braves!!! Lost a nail-biter today. But we ARE gonna take the East!

I like the way this man thinks!

And I totally agree with you, Burk, about Magglio. He's just been sick this year! Pudge and Bonds as starters are really the only two I am not 100% on. I don't like the all-NY left side of the infields, but then again, I'm a Braves fan (read: anti-Mets), and just plain don't like Jeter. Of the four, though, I think you could make the strongest argument against Reyes. The other three definitely belong. Partially it's being a Braves fan, but also, looking at the numbers, I think Edgar Renteria and JJ Hardy should be the NL's shortstops.

 

[dangnewt]

And the steroid mess has been a "look the other way" debacle for ages. I say forget about the past, make today day 1, test for steroids regularly from now on with no notice, and if you're caught once you're out for a season, twice you're out for life.

Done.

I'm good with the testing, but, I think it is too early to forget about the past. The whole story needs to get out, the folks responsible need to admit to the part that they played, which includes all the players that used and the fans who looked the other way. While you can't change the records, (they should stand as a reminder) I think it is perfectly appropriate to not vote in anyone to the Hall of Fame who used for an extended time - Bonds, Sosa, McGuire - not even on the ballot; hopefully other HoF candidates will come clean. I agree that Bonds was ticketed to the Hall pre-steroids; but I still think that the damage to the game outweighs his pre-steroids talent. The list of suspects includes some former Red Sox - Roger?, Nomar?, Mo Vaughn?. I'm still recovering from the fact that the Sox once even signed Canseco and Giambi's brother.

I'm not a huge fan of the All-Star game, but I do believe that it is the best all-star game of all the major sports and is played pretty close to regular season speed.

It was nice to see Mike Lowell recognized - he is having a terrific season and has been worth every penny of the salary that the Marlins didn't want to pay.

Youk got caught by all the DHs in 1B category, plus this is really his breakout season. If he keeps it up through July of next year, I think he'll get the recognition he deserves.

Manny has not hit that well so far, but when you look at his career - he has earned perennial All-star status.

 

[louieeadg]

I understand what you're saying about steroids. But doing all this work and having some people come clean and this and that gives me headaches. The newspapers are just trying to make money and espn is trying to keep its ratings. Ok, back on topic. I'm not an advocate of steroids by any means but lets move forward, please. There has never been an era of baseball without some sort of controversy....

The 60's, 70's, and 80's were laden with players who have admitted to taking amphetamines DAILY to make it through the season, and lets not mention the use of cocaine while playing the game in the 70's and 80's, b/c you're naive to think nobody used. These drugs give a baseball player more of an advantage than steroids do. And that is not IMHO, that is from playing the game on quite a few levels for many years and seeing this stuff everyday. If you say Sosa/Bonds/McGwire should not be in the Hall of Fame then you have to take out 80% of the inductees from 1960 through 2006(06 being the year they finally banned amphetamines). And that list of amphetamine users includes Mike Schmidt. He admitted to using them for years.

Now on to steroids. Everybody wants to call out Sosa/Bonds/McGwire on this issue but look at this...some staggering number around 70-90% of the "steroid users" during this era were actually pitchers! Why does everybody keep forgetting this? Steroids help pitchers much more than they help hitters! They help the body to recover faster from the strains of a 162 game schedule on the body and especially the arm. The thing is, you can take an average pitcher on the big league level, pump him with roids and you'll see a HUGE difference. His innings will go up, his velocity goes up, his control gets better, and his stamina goes extremely up. But if you take an already great hitter and put him on steroids then yes, the results are going to be a bit odd. But don't think for one minute that any guy can shoot some roids, work out, and hit 70 home runs. Hitting a baseball is still THE hardest thing to do in sports.

No, I'm not saying we should sweep the issue under the carpet but lets move on, everyone knows who did it, esp. the players. And they have to live with it everyday. Nothing is going to come of a bunch of investigations and whatnot. Yes, they should test now and have strict penalties but the bottom line-there was nowhere in the rulebook that said they were a banned substance. It is now. Move on.

thanks for the time...
Go Braves!

 

[dangnewt]

The media with the exception of the San Francisco Chronicle which stayed on top of the BALCO story was as much a part of the problem as anyone. They are not in much of a position to point fingers.

No question that amphetamine use was more widespread than steroids. And generations of a rather lax attitude toward drugs set the stage for steroid use. I'm not sure that given how widely they were used that they resulted in a minority of players being at a distinct competitive advantage over non-users. They also appear to have had far fewer serious medical problems for the folks who took it - no ribcage muscles tearing, patella tendinitis, etc.

Regarding cocaine - 11 players got suspensions. Was it more widespread than steroids? Is cocaine as much as a performance enhancer as steroids? I suspect not, but I have no idea.

You are absolutely correct that many (I wish I knew how many) pitchers have used steroids and it enhances their performance. I wouldn't go as far to say that it helps them more - what Bonds/Sosa/McGuire did was unprecendented - an off-the-charts improvement in performance and I haven't noticed unprecendented pitching achievements (although it is possible they have been masked by the ridiculously small strike zone that the umps have been using).

And while I agree that hitting a baseball is the single most difficult thing to do in sports (I ceased being able to do it my sophomore year in college ) and steroids don't help you make contact. Every major league position player can hit the ball (some better than others) - the steroid users had more speed and more power (and probably less fear in the batters box) that resulted in harder hit balls which means more hits and more home runs.

 

[louieeadg]

Ha, sorry about Mike Schmidt, I just remembered his name in an interview on satellite radio, he was talking about amphetamines in the 70's...
Good points Joshua but here's my take:
This is why I've been aggrevated over this steroid issue because no one was ever nearly as upset over the amphetamines.

Let me put you in a situation:
Imagine, if you will, its the middle of August. Your team has about 90-100 games under their belt and you just got back from a 14 day road trip on the other side of the country where you had all of one day off work. You wake up that morning and the only thing you can think about is what it would feel like to lay in bed all day, just for a day. But no, its off to the ballpark at 1:00, where you'll be until midnight. The thermometer read 100 degrees but it feels like 130. There isn't a muscle in your body that actually feels good and you can't remember when you last woke up without something aching. {Now, here's where my story can take two turns...} Its about an hour before gametime and you still feel like you have lead in your feet. So you pop an adderol(amphetamine, very common). There you go, a 6 hour jolt to your body that makes you feel like you're 8 years old again. It has your blood pumping so fast, you're jumping up and down like its opening day. It improves your concentration. You're not thinking about the 2 jammed fingers you got from sliding into 2nd awkward last week, no, you're seeing and reading every little detail in the pitcher's delivery and seeing the seems in slow motion when they come out of his hand......Alright, there's a brief excerpt into the world of a baseball player on amphetamines. Its honestly, instant 8 year old energy in a pill. You switch that story to steroids and the player still plays with that aching body, its just the aching body is not as weak. There's no improvement of concentration or energy, just pure brooding muscle. And 90% of baseball is from the neck up, ask any pro scout, or yogi berra ;-)

Now, what you said about steroids improving a pitcher's control. Yes it does. Tremendously. The control a pitcher has is 90% attributed to his delivery, the other 10% mental. If his body is twice as strong as it used to be, he can go out there and repeat that perfect delivery many more times than he can if his body's weaker. So he can go deeper into games and still have that first inning velocity in the 9th inning. Nolan Ryan attributed the improved control he had later in his career due to his body getting stronger to repeat his delivery more consistently. It happened for me that way as well. I wasn't saying the "shoot roids, hit 70 homers" comment was true for pitchers, its not true for anybody. But on a percentage scale, the steroids help pitchers more. But they are already disadvantaged enough, once hitters started taking steroids, its was almost voided. And don't get me started on how messed up the game is now and how everyone caters to offense, THEY LOWERED THE MOUND after Josh Gibson had a season era of 1.12 or something. Did they raise the mound when 30 players hit 30 homeruns?!!? No! It irritates the living ***** out of me!!! (in case you're wondering, yeah, i pitched)

Oh, and I wasn't saying the cocaine helped more than steroids, I just threw it in with the amphetamines because that was the time period when it became known. But it was a problem that was quickly acknowledged and fixed, good for MLB.

I need to quit or I can make this into a book...cheers!

 

[dangnewt]

And don't get me started about how unfair the game can be towards pitchers. I'll take a pitcher's duel over a slugfest any day of the week!

There are too many pitchers on TB..... arrrgh.

Baseball seems to be righting the hitting/pitching balance which did go too far toward the hitters in the last 10 years or so. Biggest change is that the umps are starting to call the inside pitches and the high (above the belt!) pitches as strikes. The good pitchers are able to get people out and the not-so-good ones get smacked around a bit.

I would probably take a look at the bats - does it seem like these things are shattering more these days. Is it the wood or the thinner handles? I probably played more games at catcher than any other positions so I have some empathy for the pitchers and one of them is going to hurt by one of these things pretty soon.

Joshua knows how hard it is for me to say anything nice about a Yankee, but Jeter made a nice play the other day fielding a ground ball as a bat head was about to wack him in the ankles.

 

[louieeadg]

Bob Gibson?

I still disagree, but will admit that added strength can preserve a pitcher's control somewhat late in games.

And don't get me started about how unfair the game can be towards pitchers. I'll take a pitcher's duel over a slugfest any day of the week!

Yeah, that was supposed to be Bob Gibson, Josh Gibson hit 800 homeruns, they were both great.

And I know how it can seem odd about having a stronger body will attribute to control but it does. And the same skepticism you have is why I had control issues for years until I finally listened to the coach of my high school's cross-country team who was an avid baseball fan. And its not just late in games it aids in your control, its around the board. He made me realize my back, abs, and legs were weak. The arm/hand only delivers the ball but it is thrown with the rest of the body. If the body isn't strong enough to do the delivery consistanly, then there will be no consitency with where the ball ends up. If the body is stronger, mainly legs, abs, and the back, there will be more precision with the delivery, resulting in much more command of where the ball ends up. Look at pictures of Greg Maddux when he was younger with the Cubs, he was signed as a power pitcher. Scouts said he had a smooth delivery and was clocked around 92-95 when he was coming up but he was all over the place. Then look at pictures of his body when he was with the Braves. He was a control pitcher obvisouly, but his mid-section was thicker, as was his legs and back.

And no doubt will I take a pitcher's duel over a slugfest...slugfests are boring and facsist!

once again, cheers!

 

[louieeadg]

There are too many pitchers on TB..... arrrgh.

Baseball seems to be righting the hitting/pitching balance which did go too far toward the hitters in the last 10 years or so. Biggest change is that the umps are starting to call the inside pitches and the high (above the belt!) pitches as strikes. The good pitchers are able to get people out and the not-so-good ones get smacked around a bit.

There are never too many pitchers anywhere! In fact, there aren't enough of them!

And oohhhhhhhh! Don't get me started on MLB and pitchers, I'm serious. They haven't done a ***** thing to help pitchers out. Yeah, they're calling that pitch around the crotch(not belt) but there is no way they're giving the inside pitch more than they did 10 years ago. Umpires are giving guys warnings for coming inside, ejections on the next trip inside. That's Bull Feces!! Of course they're getting smacked around! Hitters are allowed to wear RoboCop armor and stand right on top of the plate, knowing the pitcher will get warned and tossed even if they accidentally hit somebody more than once. How are they supposed to get people out when the hitter knows they aren't coming inside?!!?! This isn't the way the game is supposed to be played. A good fastball close to the nose used to be just as important as a fastball on the outer half, keeps the hitter honest. Now, no way is the guy going to do that, it'll get them AND the manager ejected! And old school baseball rule #1 of Pitching: You hit somebody on purpose if they showed off while running the bases to keep arrogant sluggers in check, now...its like Bud Selig wants the MLB to be the NFL or NBA. argh! :scowl:

MLB helping out pitchers my ***!

 

[dangnewt]

And oohhhhhhhh! Don't get me started on MLB and pitchers, I'm serious.

MLB helping out pitchers my ***!

I can't help it, your posts are too good.

I didn't mean to suggest the strike zone is where it was in 1990 - just that it is starting to get a little higher and little more inside. Probably over the past two years, the zone is getting a little bigger - they have a little further to go for my taste (which is probably short of where you and Joshua would go), but these things take time.

I'm with you on the RoboCop armor - my rule change is that a pitch that glances off the pads is a ball.

We'll have to disagree on the high hard one. Not enough pitchers have the control to throw it properly. Enough players have been severely injured by unintentional beanballs, I'd rather not increase the chances with more intentional beanballs. I'd be OK with giving the pitchers some of the plate back, but I'd rather they keep the ball out of the batter's face.

The pitchers need to help themselves a bit - I think that too many of them give in to the pressure of their teammates and/or manager and/or fans to intentionally hit somebody every time a teammate gets hit even when it was pretty clearly accidental. That is what really gets the hitters mad on the other team.

 

[louieeadg]

We'll have to disagree on the high hard one. Not enough pitchers have the control to throw it properly. Enough players have been severely injured by unintentional beanballs, I'd rather not increase the chances with more intentional beanballs. I'd be OK with giving the pitchers some of the plate back, but I'd rather they keep the ball out of the batter's face.

....... That is what really gets the hitters mad on the other team.

I wasn't saying to blatently just start throwing high and hard for the sake of scaring/pissing people off. If a pitcher has made it that far in the league, they have above average command. And when you're in the league and the announcers say you're "wild"...it isn't nearly as wild as the guy on that high school team you faced once who could throw 90 but really didn't have a clue where it was going. Now granted, everyone doesn't have Greg Maddux control(he's a god) but pitchers in the bigs should be allowed to throw a ball where they want(of course i'm not saying hit any and everybody for a bad look, but getting hit is part of the game!). And while you say enough hittters have been severely injured, there's been plenty of pitchers SEVERELY injured and even killed from balls flying at them hit by guys wearing big armor who knew they wouldn't come inside because they'd be thrown out.
The hitter should know the risk he takes everytime he steps in the box, that's what seperates baseball players from golfers. They have helmets, a bat, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Armor, an umpire looking out for their best interest, and a commisioner on their side hoping they hit a homerun. What does the pitcher have? A glove! Baseball is a chess game and hitting a guy on occasion was a mental part of the game. If you're going up to bat with plans to hit a ball 500 feet then you should be able to take a fastball in the leg on occasion. Its just part of the game!

i'm done for now,
cheers

 

[dangnewt]

The Sox just called up one of their prize prospects to fill in the outfield while Coco Crisp is recovering from a thumb injury. Watch for the name Jacoby Ellsbury - the kid can fly. His first hit was an ordinary bouncer to short that was handled cleanly but not quickly enough and he beat it out. After that the infielders stopped lollygagging when he hit one to them. Last night he scored on a wild pitch from second base! Other teams are probably gonna try to pry him away, I hope the Sox hold onto him.

 

[OrionManMatt]

Oh, Hunter Pence. You make it look so easy.

Go 'Stros!

 

[OrionManMatt]

The hitter should know the risk he takes every time he steps in the box, that's what separates baseball players from golfers. They have helmets, a bat, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Armor, an umpire looking out for their best interest, and a commissioner on their side hoping they hit a home run. What does the pitcher have? A glove! Baseball is a chess game and hitting a guy on occasion was a mental part of the game. If you're going up to bat with plans to hit a ball 500 feet then you should be able to take a fastball in the leg on occasion. Its just part of the game!

i'm done for now,
cheers

As long as they're not throwing upstairs, I entirely agree.

 

[louieeadg]

And the Yanks actually played a pretty fair game last night. Good pitching (although Mo made it a bit exciting in the 9th), good D, and some offense. Heck, if they could do that with any regularity they might be on to something!

I didn't know I was into a discussion with the only thing thats worse than a Mets fan...

Yeah, if they could do anything regularly, besides spend money, I think the championship count would be around 31 or so right now

And don't get me started on my theory about Roger Clemens and steroids

cheers

 

[dangnewt]

Don't hold back for me either. I am one of those Sox fans that thinks Bill Simmons (ESPN's Sports Guy) had it right when he asked "Is Clemens the AntiChrist?"


http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1206543

 

[louieeadg]

Good read, but I absolutey HATE to be reminded that we traded Wells for him.

God I love Yankee fans. A rare breed of mutants who actually do know better than their managers, coaches, and OWNERS. Finally, I've heard what I wanted to hear since they made that trade. True, they got a great pitcher but they gave up one of those invaluable guys in the clubhouse who cracks jokes and makes people forget that they play 162 games a year. And not to mention...he was a Yankee. Clemens is just a pitcher, nothing more and nothing less.

And now on to my steroid theory...

As it said in that article about him being chubby from 93-96, he went to Toronto and all of a sudden became Superman. He didn't just trim down, he got Arnold-like. Hmmm. I understand about the aging body and I've seen my Dad get huge in the past 10 years. But its more of an "Old Man" big, not chubby or weight room big. Now I'll go back to my earlier statements about the ratio of pitchers to hitters that were using steroids at the time(and for some reason I always think about Mo Vaughn, he's definetely a candidate). Players have stated on quite a few occasions that more pitchers were using and suspected of use. Just look at pictures of this guy. He was trim, country, farm-boy like strong. Then he got fat. Then he turned into the Incredible Hulk. Now, I don't know of a dietician or personal trainer on this earth that would do that do a pitcher. Yes, body strength is good for durability, but if you have a fat-a$$ looking to get in shape, you think about losing weight, not gaining 20 MORE pounds while still shedding all the fat from your body except your face and joints. And that's one of the biggest things steroids do. They make your body retain more water than usual so the muscles have more food and recovery substance. I'm not saying he was on them for a long time. But why has no one ever questioned it? They questioned Giambi because he had his hand in the cookie jar. Then they question Bonds because he dealt with the trainer. Then they question Puhjols. Then poor Rapheal Palmero is crucified. Plenty of big name hitters, why no pitchers? Is it too far of a stretch to think Selig wanted to protect the living legend...or the white living legend? Is it too far of a stretch to think he didn't mind Bonds being ridiculed because he's black, much less media friendly, and absolutely bashed the homerun record. Sosa and McGwire can do as they please, they saved the game and earned MLB billions for the years to come but Bonds didn't help the game so much in the media's eyes. I don't know...these are things I ponder...being in journalism, I just know that there is ALWAYS more than meets the eye...especially the public eye.

cheers and thanks for the megabytes...