Bass amp modeling?

[Ric5]

It seems we (bassist) are a lot into FRFR (full range flat response) cabs but not into amp modeling. We hardly see any Line 6 Helix, Fractal or Kemper mentionned here when a lot of guitarist are using them. Granted there are a lot more guitarist than bassist and that these product are aimed toward them but still, it seems any attempt from manufacturers to go this route for bassists have failed.

I just discovered this, I might be dufus...

I think some people soured on bass amp modeling because the first couple generations were not HD ... they were more mid range and didn't really go full frequency. I have the original line6 bass pod. It was hard to learn and I noticed it wasn't really hi-fi. The frequency response was not full range. But I loved some of what it could do. So I run it in a pedalboard with other pedals in parallel so I get all of the frequencies from subsonic to supersonic. The newer line 6 products are HD and not so mid heavy, but I still like the old bass pod 1 because bass is a midrange instrument and that is where the growl comes from.

The other line of thinking is the modeling is only good in the studio and not live. Which I totally disagree with. I like adding modeling character to my bass.

Then there is the line of thought that a bass is a bass and it should be clean and there should be no effects, and we should only hear the fundamental. Well in reality the fundamental that a lot of people think they love so much is actually a low midrange overtone. Overtones is what makes the bass sound good, and adding a little character to those overtones can make it sound better.

 

[edencab]

The Bronco isn't a Rumble.
Rumble & Bronco are separate lines.

I was thinking of getting one of those new Mustang GTs, until I found AmpliTube.

thanks, forgot, fixed

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I own and use a Kemper and really have no desire to go back to using a dedicated bass rig.

Recently in the "if you won the lottery" thread I started out saying I wanted a roomful of gear, but then changed my mind to just a handful of high end modelers/profilers.

 

[edencab]

not am amp but, my Zoom B1-on pedal has about a gazillion amp modelling options and pedals that can be programmed in

 

[JW56789]

When synths came into wide use in the late 70's and 80's, you'd look down at the control panel on a CS80, a Jupiter 8, a Prophet, and the rest, you saw acres of knobs with arcane sounding names like LFO's and pulse width modulation. When the Yamaha DX7 debuted, it was a landmark instrument for its' new and new-sounding patches . . . . . . and it had few user operated controls. It was all pre-loaded patches. I once saw a DX programming device at Yamaha in Buena Park and they wisely decided not to market the thing. They did market plug-ins with lists of different sounds, one of the earliest applications of that sort of thing. And nobody complained about missing all those knobs.

There's lots of folks who were perfectly happy with PODS or similar devices, and I think one day, we'll see bass amps laid out like the DX7. Presets, basic gain controls, and overall global tone, and that will be it. With the right digital skullduggery and proper cabinets, we might not miss all those knobs either.

I look at a lot of axes with onboard 3-band, maybe a piezo bridge to boot, going into heads or combos with lots of EQ after it goes through a pedalboard with who knows what, and think, 'that's just too much work', and too many chances to out-think yourself. Not to mention a query on TB later wondering why I can't get a decent tone out of my rig . . . . .

One of my favorite digital camera review websites will occasionally praise a particularly well-liked camera as it 'just gets out of the way and lets me shoot'. I often wonder why that sort of idea is not often applied to electric instruments or their amplification. I often think we have too many choices, which for me is a lot of chances to drive the train right into the ditch . . . . .

 

[monsterthompson]

I have a Barefaced BB2, which is very much like a PA/monitor FRFR machine. I have played a Kemper though it, and it works wonderfully. I currently own a DSM OminCabSimD, and that allows me to change the character of the cab, but adjusting the pedal's parameters. It isn't as swanky as the Kemper, but it does work.

 

[chadds]

My engineer buds say it is faster to use a plug-in than drag out the AC30 or tweed Bassman and setup and adjust mics.
Many sessions are on the clock.
I’ve never heard anyone say they sound better. They may sound as good.
Real question that only each of us can answer is does the model respond ie. push back, follow your every inflection, warble a little if you go from fast to slow or pleasantly change as the night goes on, moan when you dial up the instrument’s volume?
I’m not saying one is superior just is the actual rig different enough that to some it matters? Maybe a personal choice. “It sounds great” all the way to “it’s nice but it’s missing X.”
It was mentioned above that some like these flat cabs. I assume this means the rig is “transparent.” Some rigs allow any sound to be reproduced and some are purpose built to have a sound that while hugely pleasing and popular isn’t flexible.

 

[GreyBeard]

I use a Zoom B2.1n and I think I use the (tube pre), (SVT), (Bassman), and (Chorus) presets. I don't know if they actually sound like those amps as I don't have anything to compare them to, I just like they way they sound. Years ago I had a Line6 POD Pro rack mount pre. I just never bonded with that thing and I ended up selling it.

I've never known of any SVT owner who had anything good to say about the SVT modeling on any pedal/pre-amp.

 

[PDGood]

When synths came into wide use in the late 70's and 80's, you'd look down at the control panel on a CS80, a Jupiter 8, a Prophet, and the rest, you saw acres of knobs with arcane sounding names like LFO's and pulse width modulation. When the Yamaha DX7 debuted, it was a landmark instrument for its' new and new-sounding patches . . . . . . and it had few user operated controls. It was all pre-loaded patches. I once saw a DX programming device at Yamaha in Buena Park and they wisely decided not to market the thing. They did market plug-ins with lists of different sounds, one of the earliest applications of that sort of thing. And nobody complained about missing all those knobs.

There's lots of folks who were perfectly happy with PODS or similar devices, and I think one day, we'll see bass amps laid out like the DX7. Presets, basic gain controls, and overall global tone, and that will be it. With the right digital skullduggery and proper cabinets, we might not miss all those knobs either.

I look at a lot of axes with onboard 3-band, maybe a piezo bridge to boot, going into heads or combos with lots of EQ after it goes through a pedalboard with who knows what, and think, 'that's just too much work', and too many chances to out-think yourself. Not to mention a query on TB later wondering why I can't get a decent tone out of my rig . . . . .

One of my favorite digital camera review websites will occasionally praise a particularly well-liked camera as it 'just gets out of the way and lets me shoot'. I often wonder why that sort of idea is not often applied to electric instruments or their amplification. I often think we have too many choices, which for me is a lot of chances to drive the train right into the ditch . . . . .

I enjoyed this post, but would like to point out one thing. The DX7 had an enormous amount of user operated controls - that's what all the algorithms at the top are to help you with. When I got mine I spent many hours creating my own sounds from scratch. That was part of the beauty of that machine - it helped you learn how sounds are built.

 

[jtemple]

I bought a used Line 6 Bass Pod XT Live from a fellow TB'er here a couple of years ago and have been very happy with the sounds that I get out of that device. I like the Ampeg SVT, GK 800RB, Acoustic 360, Ampeg FlipTop and usually wind up using one of those. Lots of stuff I don't use.

 

[beans-on-toast]

There are amps where models can be selected. There are more DAW amp plugins, they are a lot less expensive than buying an amp.

For more flexibility, modelling can be broken down into amp and cabinet. Then further divided into preamp and power amp.

Invalid Link Removed has a good reputation for cab modelling.

There are a number of amp plugins available. The people that record and mix, and some that do live work apply plugins on behalf of bass players. I think that many bass players see amps that have modelling built in as more of a gimmick because it is offered in so many lower end amps.

Perhaps things will change with time.

 

[ballynally]

When i started playing bass there was nothing else than standard gear.you could find out what type of amp you liked and go for it.i still do.since then i've added some bassamp sims to my gear to have some variation and it works great (zoom ms60b).
I think bass players might want 2 or 3 different amp voices to play with.Guitar players just want more parameters mainly for the fact that the frequency range is so much more delicate and audible.
It's funny as there are many more ss bass players than guitar players.You would think going ss means amp sims but no, that's not the case...yet.and there are way more guitarists of course.
However, i could do a bass gig just with my little Zoom pedal to the PA.no sweat.
I could potentially sell most of my bass gear.still an option if i ever need the money..
I will never sell my valve guitar amps.

 

[bucephylus]

Amp makers, such as @Jim Bergantino, are using DSP in their amp designs. And while that is not a full “modeling” implementation, I think it does point in the direction of using digital processing to produce the desired analog sounds. Which is what we players are actually seeking.

Systems like the Kemper are fine; but, they are massively costly partly because they attempt to be all things for all players. Which approach is a noble effort, but makes them expensive. And, DSP isn’t really ready for that yet.

My sense is that progress is being made. The more incremental approaches, like the B|Amp, are quite incredible. The full tilt modelers, like the Kemper, May be several bridges too far at this point; but, they certainly show the potential. So, I see lots of progress.

 

[DavetheDude]

I have a Barefaced BB2, which is very much like a PA/monitor FRFR machine. I have played a Kemper though it, and it works wonderfully. I currently own a DSM OminCabSimD, and that allows me to change the character of the cab, but adjusting the pedal's parameters. It isn't as swanky as the Kemper, but it does work.

I have the BB2 now, too, but I only go Instrument - > amp and then di out. Sweet enough as it is drool

 

[Chrisk-K]

Less $$$ to earn from serving (lowly) bass players.

 

[Loopy3]

Hello All, The L6 POD 500X has a complete bank of bass amp simulations and effects with no compatibility issues with the modeled effects. You can even line up various effects / models in a setlist format. It may not be perfect but for on the go it is cheaper, more compact and easier to lug around than a few amp heads and a 3 foot pedalboard.

 

[magyk8ball]

I've got the Line 6 Helix. Really impressed with this thing. The latest software update has some cool dedicate bass amps and fx. What i feel is not talked about enough, is that input 7 can be used as DI when recording; and its in phase with the amp model you're playing through. Really simplifies recording bass guitar and makes it sound better, for me at least.

 

[Manticore]

Systems like the Kemper are fine; but, they are massively costly partly because they attempt to be all things for all players. Which approach is a noble effort, but makes them expensive. And, DSP isn’t really ready for that yet.

Respectfully, I disagree with the notion the Kemper is massively expensive. A Kemper costs considerably less than many dedicated bass rigs. For instance, a new Kemper from Sweetwater is 25% less costly than a new SVT Heritage head. The current Sweetwater price for a Kemper is the same as the price for a Fender Super Bassman head. With the Kemper, you have access to the tone from multiple SVT and Bassman heads, as well as a wide variety of other amp makes. One of my favorite profiles is a HiWatt DR201, for instance. I've already modeled my SWR gear. I'm not a rep or a salesman; I'm merely suggesting a little lateral thinking on the part of bassists may go a long way toward many individuals finding an alternate means of entering tonal bliss for any gig regardless of the musical style. After trying the Kemper, and considering its capabilities, I've come to the conclusion it is perhaps the most cost efficient means of accessing a universe of useful tones. After considering the time savings in setting up, tearing down and hauling, one can see how cost efficient it really is. Again, this has been my personal experience.

 

[JW56789]

I enjoyed this post, but would like to point out one thing. The DX7 had an enormous amount of user operated controls - that's what all the algorithms at the top are to help you with. When I got mine I spent many hours creating my own sounds from scratch. That was part of the beauty of that machine - it helped you learn how sounds are built.

Agreed. But lots of folks never touched them. Chowning's FM synthesis had far different building blocks than analog synths. I could somewhat program in analog, but FM was just a mystery . . . . . that me and a lot of people never had to learn as the loaded patches were so good. Geez I remember that a square wave fed through a fast ADSR evolution would make a fair clavinet . . . . .

But there can be a down-side to pre-programmed. I'm sure you remember how hot those things were, and waiting on the next shipment became common. So, someone decided to go to Japan, buy up a load of them, bring them here and 'gray market' them as they were just that in-demand.

They didn't know that Yamaha had gone to the trouble of loading North American and Euro versions with patches that were more suited to gaijin musical styles . . . . . and that those for Japan had sounds more in keeping with what artists sounded like there at home. In other words, they had all these beyond 80-ish 'Casiotone' Japanese-Pop sounds (Hello, Kitty !!). It didn't go well . . . . . .

 

[James Collins]

It seems we (bassist) are a lot into FRFR (full range flat response) cabs but not into amp modeling. We hardly see any Line 6 Helix, Fractal or Kemper mentionned here when a lot of guitarist are using them. Granted there are a lot more guitarist than bassist and that these product are aimed toward them but still, it seems any attempt from manufacturers to go this route for bassists have failed.

I just discovered this, I might be dufus...

It's what I do. I got sold on the idea after watching several blind tests where they couldn't tell. Andertons being the most memorable one. That guy really believed tubes resigned supreme and is in the business of selling expensive time amps. He couldn't tell which was which.