Bass amp modeling?

[stringthrough]

No longer made but can be found used, for sale... Next problem.

 

[gelinas666]

I prefer Tube preamps and Tube poweramps. Not many come close to the sound of an Ampeg SVT and 810 .. Tried many.. The "Eleven Rack" with the Expansion Pack was the closest to me. I use it for home practising in my studio..

 

[James Collins]

The other thing I would point out is the lack of clutter. I have my modeling head mounted on a book shelf to practice with. I use it for both guitar and bass, so I don't have to have all the clutter of multiple cabinet/heads in my office. I can go through a lot of effects combinations and amp/cabinet combinations with the flick of a switch. All without a mass of visible cables running all around the room or cabinets taking up an entire wall.

Also, while I haven't exactly used it for this, I feel like it is somewhat like trying out a bunch of different gear that I might not be able to find in a store near enough to me. So if you aren't really sure if you would want the Mesa Rectifier sound on your guitar or what an envelope filter would sound like, you can try it out quickly and easily.

 

[tbassist4]

For my two cents, Impulse Responses, which modelling is based off of, can be a really great way to capture a great recording setup - most people don't look beyond reverb. I've worked more and more "in the box" as the years have gone on, but in a weird way it can make you less nervous to pull out the analog gear. Even though I'm heavy into digital production, it's still a little bit amazing to me that I can spend hours tweaking amp and effects settings, mic placement, and then "record" that signal chain itself as an impulse response and recall it any time I like in my DAW just like loading a plugin preset.

For personal projects that don't have a deadline I used to leave amp/effect setups in place for weeks after I found a really compelling sound for fear that I might lose it and never be able to set things up the same way again - often times I couldn't. Now that isn't really a fear anymore. Since I'm also a choir/orchestral music performer and composer I can use the same technology, time and volume levels allowing, to capture a space that I liked and load it into pretty much any IR based plugin to instantly have my recording back in that space again.

 

[blubass]

tech 21 sansamp RPM...$330......a real bassman doesnt need much..maybe a good set of fingers...look at Grand Funk Railroad....always rocked the house............some settings for RPM.....Tech 21 SansAmp RPM User Manual (Page 6 of 6)

So only "fake" bassists use extra equipment?

 

[Warwick Qc418]

@tbbassist4 it seems you are a perfectionist and what you are making out of it seems great. I believe this is also where the technology really shines, the possibilities are endless and it is going to sound only as good as you can make it if you want to dig into it.

Yesterday I began tweaking the modeled OR80 guitar amp on my helix to make a convincing AD200 into a SVT 810, it became my dream rig for 1 hour... until the next one.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I went through several generations of Line 6 bass modeling gear and I essentially used the SVT model. In reality a Sansamp is all we really need when it comes to modeling.

 

[basscapes]

Maybe a little off topic, or at least sideways to it...

I honestly looked into both types of rigs- a full range speaker system with a modeling (or at least, basic emulation) of the great bass amps/rigs/etc; and the good old standard amps (SVT, Acoustic, Fender Bassman, Alembic pre amp with Power amp, New/Used, DIY, etc...).

I'd been a Tech 212 user for many years- I have the RBI, had 2 GT-2s at one point, and even had the original Bass DI (the one with no external controls). They are great for what they are (okay, technically, they are NOT modelers, just emulators). But did I want/need multiple amplifier sounds/tones, etc? Did I want a multitude of effects at my feet (way more than any pedal board could handle, my mind could process or my feet could reach)?

The more I looked into the modeling thing, the more I felt like I was buying a car with all the bells and whistles I ultimately wouldn't need! I'm a stick shift kind of guy. I LIKE a manual transmission in this world of CVTs and traction control. My car, for example, does NOT have antilock brakes and traction control. Heck, it doesn't even have power windows! That's just who I am...

After much agonizing deliberation (and believe me, it was to the point of neuroses and a break down), I decided that I only needed to have one or two classic sounds that would be my basis for playing. My bass already gives me about 80-90% or what I want at the playing end (action, feel, basic workable tone), so that was okay.

It really was a decision of the type of amplification. Was it going to be a part of the tone (i.e., interactive) or just a soundscape for the notes?

So I bit the bullet and bought an Ampeg SVT810E, a few preamp pedals (Tronographic Rusty Box and Ampeg SCR-DI), as well as a few other bits to interface, got (okay, GETTING) my pedal board in line (already have a few dirt boxes as well as the requisite delay and modulation pedals), and concentrated on just being a good player in my style of music (which, itself, doesn't need me to have more than two or three basic good sounding basic tones).

The 810, while far from the frequency response of a full range cab, gives me that straight ahead rock and roll tone that I want, while at the same time, allowing for the warmth and articulation I also wanted.

And yes, I am guilty of the ULTIMATE CARDINAL SIN- I MIKE THE CAB and don't use a DI line for recording anymore... I want the sound and intensity of an amp/cab blasting away a few feet in front of me. There's just something there that I haven't heard in any modeling/emu gear.

That's just my 2 cents on the topic.

 

[blubass]

The biggest issue I see with these topics is confirmation bias and inaccurate information.
Once a belief is learned, a person has a tendency to fiercely defend their position regardless of rights and wrongs.

There really is no debating or rationalizing a lot of these learned beliefs because the holder isn't interested in learning new or accurate information, just perpetuating their beliefs.

 

[tbassist4]

@tbbassist4 it seems you are a perfectionist and what you are making out of it seems great. I believe this is also where the technology really shines, the possibilities are endless and it is going to sound only as good as you can make it if you want to dig into it.

Yesterday I began tweaking the modeled OR80 guitar amp on my helix to make a convincing AD200 into a SVT 810, it became my dream rig for 1 hour... until the next one.

Perfectionist? Mostly I just like weird things.

But I think you hit on the best part of modelling and working with IR responses. You can spend time just tweaking it exactly how you want and you can be as crazy or traditional with it as you like - and then you'll just have that setup forever to record with. Someone's dream might be to recreate that SVT 810 through a specific set of pedals and their amp head of choice to get that old school bar gigging sound, and I mean the utmost respect. Mine usually involves just weird or lesser known amps/effects I've run into across the years. Things I may not ever set up again - but that moment of finding that amazing "dream rig" setup can just be saved like a picture. That's the whole point for me.

The other overlooked part is sharing those IR responses. The main complaint I hear from purists (to me, that's anyone who uses physical or traditional gear only) is that modelling doesn't quite capture the magic or what they're expecting out of their vintage fender, etc., rig. Ta da, now you can roll your own, or even page through what other people have made until you find that perfect emulation of your dream rig.

 

[Deak]

So an non powered Kemper "profiler", not a "modeler", for about the same price as a Super Bassman 300 could be aux'd into my D800 and while covering the SB cost alone, give me all of those profiles for so many other heads and cabs?

Then there is the optimum FRFR cab question.

Right now I'm running a Le Bass into the front of my D800 and that combination will never be off the chain. To me the sound is about as tight, rich and creamy as I have heard in a long long time, although I will admit I need to get out more.

This is all very interesting.

 

[el murdoque]

I think that the fact that the Kemper is not really popular among bass players is due to the fact that the majority has turned their backs on tube heads a long time ago. If you look at the market of popular bass tube heads, you've covered the major part with the SVTs, Fender (Super) Bassmans and Orange 200's. If you look at the market for popular class D heads, you don't even know where to begin the list, and it is a long one. The reason for bassists was quite simple - you need to sink 1,5 grand into a used 300W head that weighs in at 80+ lbs. When the time for a tube change comes, you're looking at a matched pair of 6 powertubes and a ton of pre tubes, which will cost around 400 bucks at least.
So if that tiny class D amp does not sound just as good, but nearly ... the cost and weight factors are strong ones.
Another important thing to factor in is that live, most FOH systems will take a DI signal and refuse to mic the bass cab. I know enough FOH guys that will rig a mic in front of the bass amp if the bass player insists strongly and tell the bass player that they will blend mic and DI for perfect balance - only to use 100% DI signal.
So if that sweet tube tone is more or less just for stage monitoring, why bother?

Back when I started out, all guitar players I knew had essentially the same rig. Either a 50W or a 100W tube head and a 4x12. Nowadays it is 30W or less and 2x12 or 1x12 for most of the guys I work with (outside of metal, where no one seems to know that guitar cabs exist that have less than four twelve inch speakers). The amps and cabs are cheaper than bass rigs, they are a lot lighter and easier to transport. A tube change is not as expensive and the used market is a lot bigger. Plus, when the guitar plays a lead or solo, the educated listener can hear the overtones and distortion of a tube vs. some solid state alternative. As a guitarist, you can expect a small mic stand on stage for your cab, because guitars get mic'ed.

Enter the Kemper.
For a guitar player, once he realizes how good that thing is in copying an amp, this opens a whole new world.
For a bass player, there are nice options, too - but it is just another tool in a territory that is kind of familiar.
One of the guitar players I work with owns a Kemper among a variety of high quality Marshall, Engl and Mesa tube heads. I can't really say that the Kemper is lacking in any department. It offers two huge advantages:
The master pot.
You can crank the amp all you want so it sounds like a tube amp driven to the limit and then just turn down the master to taste.
And the output.
No need to mic that thing on stage. Just load your profile, plug in the cable and done. No more squealing guitar cabs on stage, needing to be that loud for the sweet saturation, adding noise through the singer and drum mics, leading to a much cleaner FOH sound.

So as a bass player, you can have all the tube rigs in one box where even the most educated of listeners will fail in a blind test between the original rig and the profile, which is quite powerful.
But you're not standing in a whole new territory - you're already there. You've faced the problems, you came up with something and you made it work for you. That super tiny head and a bunch of pedals already give you a variety of sounds to choose from and enough power to deliver it. Using a Kemper will still be a leap, just not as big as for a guitar player.

 

[PDGood]

Agreed. But lots of folks never touched them. Chowning's FM synthesis had far different building blocks than analog synths. I could somewhat program in analog, but FM was just a mystery . . . . . that me and a lot of people never had to learn as the loaded patches were so good. Geez I remember that a square wave fed through a fast ADSR evolution would make a fair clavinet . . . . .

But there can be a down-side to pre-programmed. I'm sure you remember how hot those things were, and waiting on the next shipment became common. So, someone decided to go to Japan, buy up a load of them, bring them here and 'gray market' them as they were just that in-demand.

They didn't know that Yamaha had gone to the trouble of loading North American and Euro versions with patches that were more suited to gaijin musical styles . . . . . and that those for Japan had sounds more in keeping with what artists sounded like there at home. In other words, they had all these beyond 80-ish 'Casiotone' Japanese-Pop sounds (Hello, Kitty !!). It didn't go well . . . . . .

LOL. That's a great story.

 

[Deak]

The biggest issue I see with these topics is confirmation bias and inaccurate information.
Once a belief is learned, a person has a tendency to fiercely defend their position regardless of rights and wrongs.

There really is no debating or rationalizing a lot of these learned beliefs because the holder isn't interested in learning new or accurate information, just perpetuating their beliefs.

I believe the confirmation and biased information is everywhere and always has been. It's our responsibility as thinking beings to learn to separate the wheat from the shaff, so to speak. If you fiercely defend a falsehood, you have to live with that and possibly suffer the consequences. If you profess and perpetuate a falsehood to the masses then you are indeed responsible for others as a result of the misinformation.

You are right. It's a fools errand to try and force someone to change their mind, sometimes entrenching that mindset even deeper.

However, it is the fool that will not peacefully debate with others, or rationalize learned beliefs and accept the desire to learn the truth by giving up his pride. This is why we look for the truth and take every opportunity to provide facts to support it.

Peaceful debate and the humble eager student of the truth are becoming a rare thing. Lets hope we all get much better at it.

Without careful, selfless and patient consideration these days we can polarize as any type of group overnight. More and more I fear the closed minded results effecting all of us.

Besides, open mindedness gave us the P Bass.

 

[Sid Fang]

Tony Levin used a Kemper touring with King Crimson, if I IDed it correctly in his rack...

 

[1bassleft]

The biggest issue I see with these topics is confirmation bias and inaccurate information.
Once a belief is learned, a person has a tendency to fiercely defend their position regardless of rights and wrongs.

I'll be fair enough to myself to say I kept an open mind and ears but, for those who don't, you only have to wait 'til their backs are 50+ and they've downsized to a nice, quiet area. Or, on the other side of the fence, until Windows 21 comes out and they really give up.

I think that the fact that the Kemper is not really popular among bass players is due to the fact that the majority has turned their backs on tube heads a long time ago. If you look at the market of popular bass tube heads, you've covered the major part with the SVTs, Fender (Super) Bassmans and Orange 200's. If you look at the market for popular class D heads, you don't even know where to begin the list, and it is a long one. The reason for bassists was quite simple - you need to sink 1,5 grand into a used 300W head that weighs in at 80+ lbs. When the time for a tube change comes, you're looking at a matched pair of 6 powertubes and a ton of pre tubes, which will cost around 400 bucks at least.
So if that tiny class D amp does not sound just as good, but nearly ... the cost and weight factors are strong ones.
Another important thing to factor in is that live, most FOH systems will take a DI signal and refuse to mic the bass cab. I know enough FOH guys that will rig a mic in front of the bass amp if the bass player insists strongly and tell the bass player that they will blend mic and DI for perfect balance - only to use 100% DI signal.
So if that sweet tube tone is more or less just for stage monitoring, why bother?

Back when I started out, all guitar players I knew had essentially the same rig. Either a 50W or a 100W tube head and a 4x12. Nowadays it is 30W or less and 2x12 or 1x12 for most of the guys I work with (outside of metal, where no one seems to know that guitar cabs exist that have less than four twelve inch speakers). The amps and cabs are cheaper than bass rigs, they are a lot lighter and easier to transport. A tube change is not as expensive and the used market is a lot bigger. Plus, when the guitar plays a lead or solo, the educated listener can hear the overtones and distortion of a tube vs. some solid state alternative. As a guitarist, you can expect a small mic stand on stage for your cab, because guitars get mic'ed.

Enter the Kemper.
For a guitar player, once he realizes how good that thing is in copying an amp, this opens a whole new world.
For a bass player, there are nice options, too - but it is just another tool in a territory that is kind of familiar.
One of the guitar players I work with owns a Kemper among a variety of high quality Marshall, Engl and Mesa tube heads. I can't really say that the Kemper is lacking in any department. It offers two huge advantages:
The master pot.
You can crank the amp all you want so it sounds like a tube amp driven to the limit and then just turn down the master to taste.
And the output.
No need to mic that thing on stage. Just load your profile, plug in the cable and done. No more squealing guitar cabs on stage, needing to be that loud for the sweet saturation, adding noise through the singer and drum mics, leading to a much cleaner FOH sound.

So as a bass player, you can have all the tube rigs in one box where even the most educated of listeners will fail in a blind test between the original rig and the profile, which is quite powerful.
But you're not standing in a whole new territory - you're already there. You've faced the problems, you came up with something and you made it work for you. That super tiny head and a bunch of pedals already give you a variety of sounds to choose from and enough power to deliver it. Using a Kemper will still be a leap, just not as big as for a guitar player.

But does it go up to 11?

 

[SteveC]

I went through several generations of Line 6 bass modeling gear and I essentially used the SVT model. In reality a Sansamp is all we really need when it comes to modeling.

Well, not everyone is in love with Ampeg/Sansamp so we do need more than that.

I have wanted and tried to embrace modeling as my gigs are all DI/IEM. I think Line6 was close. The Bass Pod was pretty close IMHO. Unfortunately, numbers are against us. There are many times more guitar players (and potential profit) than bass players so...

 

[socialleper]

I like the idea of it, but aside from when I'm recording with a DAW, modeling doesn't come across particularly good live. Digitally simulating a tube head is trying to bend the laws of physics to your will as it is. Trying to reproduce the exact characteristic of a particular tube amp with software in a head or combo seems like a bridge too far. Modeling a SS head is probably easier, but aside from GK, there aren't many SS heads that bass players are gaga for.
It gets even trickier because our cab configs vary a lot more than guitar cabs, so they have a massive impact on tone. You can't simulate a cab tone live.

 

[bucephylus]

....Modeling a SS head is probably easier, but aside from GK, there aren't many SS heads that bass players are gaga for.

FYI FWIW, that particular statement is a good bit behind the curve.

 

[basscapes]

Well, not everyone is in love with Ampeg/Sansamp so we do need more than that."

True that! I was an SWR guy for the longest time. Then G-K, Then Tech 21. Now going through my partial Ampeg Phase (ironically, where I started when I was 16!).

One needs only look at the multiple rigs of guys like Geddy Lee (or even Chris Squire, who seems to be more identified for his Ricky than the SVT-IIs and Marshall in his rig!) to remember that while ating steak every day may be nice; but once in a while you need a fillet mignon AND/OR a Big Mac to keep things in perspective!