Bass amp modeling?

[basscapes]

No longer made but can be found used, for sale... Next problem.

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Used a pair of them briefly for some studio dates way back when they first came out- that one for my neck PUP and the guitar one for my bridge PUP!

Decent, but not really the same as an amp, to me at least (still missing "something" to my ears)!

 

[3bc]

I think if we are being honest the difference between one amp to the next for bass vs the guitar is a really nominal, especially after you drop drums, guitars, keys and vocals on top of it. Even taking into consideration hugely different amps such as an SVT classic vs an SWR solid state type of amp. On their own you can tell a big difference, but with some EQing you can get them to sound like 85-90% the same thing, and in a musical context the average listener can't tell a difference at all.

Add in the smaller market for bass gear vs guitar gear and it's a wonder why anyone would invest in bass modeling, IMO.

And this is coming from someone who just invested a pretty penny in a Genzler rig, which would be expensive/boutique by nearly anyone's standards.

IMO the biggest yardstick by which to compare one bass rig and the next is more about does it sound good, and can it project enough volume at the desired frequencies, not really about the specific voice.

 

[Warwick Qc418]

I think that the fact that the Kemper is not really popular among bass players is due to the fact that the majority has turned their backs on tube heads a long time ago. If you look at the market of popular bass tube heads, you've covered the major part with the SVTs, Fender (Super) Bassmans and Orange 200's. If you look at the market for popular class D heads, you don't even know where to begin the list, and it is a long one. The reason for bassists was quite simple - you need to sink 1,5 grand into a used 300W head that weighs in at 80+ lbs. When the time for a tube change comes, you're looking at a matched pair of 6 powertubes and a ton of pre tubes, which will cost around 400 bucks at least.
So if that tiny class D amp does not sound just as good, but nearly ... the cost and weight factors are strong ones.
Another important thing to factor in is that live, most FOH systems will take a DI signal and refuse to mic the bass cab. I know enough FOH guys that will rig a mic in front of the bass amp if the bass player insists strongly and tell the bass player that they will blend mic and DI for perfect balance - only to use 100% DI signal.
So if that sweet tube tone is more or less just for stage monitoring, why bother?

Back when I started out, all guitar players I knew had essentially the same rig. Either a 50W or a 100W tube head and a 4x12. Nowadays it is 30W or less and 2x12 or 1x12 for most of the guys I work with (outside of metal, where no one seems to know that guitar cabs exist that have less than four twelve inch speakers). The amps and cabs are cheaper than bass rigs, they are a lot lighter and easier to transport. A tube change is not as expensive and the used market is a lot bigger. Plus, when the guitar plays a lead or solo, the educated listener can hear the overtones and distortion of a tube vs. some solid state alternative. As a guitarist, you can expect a small mic stand on stage for your cab, because guitars get mic'ed.

Enter the Kemper.
For a guitar player, once he realizes how good that thing is in copying an amp, this opens a whole new world.
For a bass player, there are nice options, too - but it is just another tool in a territory that is kind of familiar.
One of the guitar players I work with owns a Kemper among a variety of high quality Marshall, Engl and Mesa tube heads. I can't really say that the Kemper is lacking in any department. It offers two huge advantages:
The master pot.
You can crank the amp all you want so it sounds like a tube amp driven to the limit and then just turn down the master to taste.
And the output.
No need to mic that thing on stage. Just load your profile, plug in the cable and done. No more squealing guitar cabs on stage, needing to be that loud for the sweet saturation, adding noise through the singer and drum mics, leading to a much cleaner FOH sound.

So as a bass player, you can have all the tube rigs in one box where even the most educated of listeners will fail in a blind test between the original rig and the profile, which is quite powerful.
But you're not standing in a whole new territory - you're already there. You've faced the problems, you came up with something and you made it work for you. That super tiny head and a bunch of pedals already give you a variety of sounds to choose from and enough power to deliver it. Using a Kemper will still be a leap, just not as big as for a guitar player.

I think you nailed it, I honestly didn't see it this way but you are right: bassist already addressed this problem by using the micro heads while guitarist still use the tube amps. Since it was not as big as the bass tube heads, it was a lesser problem.

Still, a lot of micro heads are trying to emulate big tube head sound, so the modeling/profiling is still a better solution IMHO at least for versatility and feature. The Markbass multiamp was a modeling/micro amp.

 

[stringthrough]

Used a pair of them briefly for some studio dates way back when they first came out- that one for my neck PUP and the guitar one for my bridge PUP!

Decent, but not really the same as an amp, to me at least (still missing "something" to my ears)!

Actually these days I use a "guitarish" POD HD. I just dial in my own amp (Bassman), cab, compressor, etc. It works well enough for home recording. In general though I've gotten better sounds out of a Tech 21 Bass Sans Amp even though it's a one trick pony.

 

[basscapes]

Actually these days I use a "guitarish" POD HD. I just dial in my own amp (Bassman), cab, compressor, etc. It works well enough for home recording. In general though I've gotten better sounds out of a Tech 21 Bass Sans Amp even though it's a one trick pony.

I won't go into my love hate story about Tech 21 and the RBI, suffice to say it's sitting in a box somewhere waiting to either be repaired and sold, or gutted for a new project!

It did however, serve its time well in my studio and live rig.

 

[Warwick Qc418]

I think if we are being honest the difference between one amp to the next for bass vs the guitar is a really nominal, especially after you drop drums, guitars, keys and vocals on top of it. Even taking into consideration hugely different amps such as an SVT classic vs an SWR solid state type of amp. On their own you can tell a big difference, but with some EQing you can get them to sound like 85-90% the same thing, and in a musical context the average listener can't tell a difference at all.

Add in the smaller market for bass gear vs guitar gear and it's a wonder why anyone would invest in bass modeling, IMO.

And this is coming from someone who just invested a pretty penny in a Genzler rig, which would be expensive/boutique by nearly anyone's standards.

IMO the biggest yardstick by which to compare one bass rig and the next is more about does it sound good, and can it project enough volume at the desired frequencies, not really about the specific voice.

We can go farther and say that most of the audience don't really care about bass guitar and unless you point them out to the bass line in the mix they can't really tell, but I do. I can definitely tell what amp a bassist is using most of the time and I believed a lot of other bassist can also. I love amp voicing and unless the bassist really tries to tame it, it adds character to the mix.

Bass modeling/profiling means you could use, in a cover band, the exact same setup used by the bassist you are covering for each song. Of course, that is being perfectionist

 

[socialleper]

FYI FWIW, that particular statement is a good bit behind the curve.

I'm not personally aware of any SS heads that have a signature sound that people are after besides GK. Which SS heads do you think have a particular enough sound to warrant modeling?

 

[Skybone]

Currently own & use a POD HD500x, with the HD Bass Pack loaded on. I think it sounds great, but I've yet to hear a Helix, or any of the other "high end modellers" with bass. I would like to try one out sometime, but then I'll probably want one.

Before the HD, I've used a B3 & a PODxt Live. Both were good, but I found them a bit limited in sound or function. I still own a PODxt bean (that I bought new when they came out) and loaded the Bass Expansion Pack on.

 

[dukeorock]

I'm not personally aware of any SS heads that have a signature sound that people are after besides GK. Which SS heads do you think have a particular enough sound to warrant modeling?

Acoustic and Sunn come to mind

 

[3bc]

We can go farther and say that most of the audience don't really care about bass guitar and unless you point them out to the bass line in the mix they can't really tell, but I do. I can definitely tell what amp a bassist is using most of the time and I believed a lot of other bassist can also. I love amp voicing and unless the bassist really tries to tame it, it adds character to the mix.

Bass modeling/profiling means you could use, in a cover band, the exact same setup used by the bassist you are covering for each song. Of course, that is being perfectionist

Even that to my mind is a fruitless endeavor. Other than Flea with GK, most bassists bounce from one amp to the next every few years. You play a song from a 10 year old album and that bassist has a totally different amp setup anyhow.

Plus the bass guitar adds its own voice, and most bass tracks are recorded direct without an amp and the character you hear is of an outboard comp/EQ.

And live, many shows the FOH sound is a little direct box and the amp is not even heard, sometimes even by the bassist.

Only my opinion, but not a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[HeadWind]

I use my Line 6 POD HD500X sometimes. For me, the key to finding bass tones that fit nice in a mix is to forget about preconceived notions of each amp and cabinet model. Just try them! Mix and match. The cabinets totally change how a given amp model sounds and feels.

But, I'm also not trying to recreate a given real life amp. I'm just looking for tones that I like and work.

- John

Funny observation: the web page for the Line 6 POD HD500X (Invalid Link Removed) shows a (real) SVT rig in the background!

 

[Razman]

It seems we (bassist) are a lot into FRFR (full range flat response) cabs but not into amp modeling...

Lots of posts about this but I don't think this is a general consensus. Want 'flat' response? Get a RTA, 31-band EQ, and some good PA cabs and a PA amp. Analyze the room you're in to set the EQ, then plug your bass in. There's your flat response for that given room. Better still, get an old Rane midi-programmable EQ so you can save your setting to recall it the next time you play that same room.

I just discovered this, I might be dufus...

Maybe there should be a club, and I'd like #2 because I share the sentiment that I too can be a big dufus from time to time. I'm already a member of the mediocre bassist club, but I think this one is different.

One of my favorite digital camera review websites will occasionally praise a particularly well-liked camera as it 'just gets out of the way and lets me shoot'. I often wonder why that sort of idea is not often applied to electric instruments or their amplification. I often think we have too many choices, which for me is a lot of chances to drive the train right into the ditch . . . . .

I see that it is, but not necessarily for the purpose of automating many features. The high-end tube amps I see have gain, 3-band EQ, and master volume. I like older amps that were this simple; also amps that may have features but behave this way. Like an 800rb - just set to noon and plug in, viola, instant excellent tone. My old Trace SMX had some cool features, but I just hit the preset for that classic Trace sound, adjusted the 12-band a little, and it sounded great. My Mesa 400 and it's polarizing Fender tone stack also sounds great, with or without the parametric EQ. I did NOT like my church's old SVT-6Pro as I needed to engage too many buttons and knobs to get the sound I wanted.

Raz

 

[socialleper]

Acoustic and Sunn come to mind

I know people like Sunn, but I thought they were tube heads. I'm not too well informed about their models.

About the only times I hear people mention Acoustic heads is when talking about combos GC carries. I've never seen anyone mention the "Acoustic tone" the way they do something like a GK RB series head.

 

[bucephylus]

I'm not personally aware of any SS heads that have a signature sound that people are after besides GK. Which SS heads do you think have a particular enough sound to warrant modeling?

That was not the question you originally stated, and to which I responded. You made the statement that GK was the only SS head that players were “gaga” over. The actual fact is there are a number of the newer SS heads that have extremely loyal users, who are perfectly “gaga” over their tool of choice.

As to decision to model a bass amp: I don’t model any of them. And I believe most of the SS players aren’t modeling either. They are trying to get the best bass tone they can get. I’ve played the SVT, Acoustic 360 etc, and certainly have a warm spot for them. Always perfectly pleased to see a healthy SVT on the supplied backline. BTW, the 360 was SS and does get modeled rather commonly; but, that’s a different discussion. Jim Bergantino is using DSP not to simulate someone else’s rig, but instead to optimize what his rigs do.

Which kind of opens the question as to what DSP is getting used for. Modeling is an interesting idea. But, just simulating some previous amp, even if it was a good (or great) one, is just scratching the surface. Isn’t the real goal to be able to produce the best tones we can get?

 

[James Collins]

Someone above was talking about how it is just another tool for the bass player and 90% of the sound he likes just comes from the bass. I do think that is true. A lower frequency just sounds better then the same note at a higher frequency. It is much easier for a bass player to get an acceptable tone than a guitar player. Often guitars will sound a bit shrill or whatever. They can have a bad tone more easily than a bass which is why guitar players obsess about it much more. I mean: I would be completely happy with the DI signal from my bass with no EQ adjustment or tone settings, but how often do you see a guitar player play completely clean with no reverb, delay, distortion, overdrive, compression, etc? They don't want to hear it, but electric guitar alone is not a pleasant sound. It needs help from a signal chain or in the case of acoustics (to minimize a debate on the topic) tone wood.

We can go farther and say that most of the audience don't really care about bass guitar and unless you point them out to the bass line in the mix they can't really tell, but I do.

We can go further and say that many guitar manufacturers don't really care about bass players. Not to say none do. Leo Fender did obviously. There are companies and builders like Alembic, Sadowsky, Fodera, Warwick, etc that primarily make basses and put a lot of care into. But I imagine most basses sold (Ibanez, Gibson, Squier, Yamaha, Schecter, etc), while being very playable are after thoughts. Like: we need to offer a couple of basses, but clearly our passion is the guitar. Same thing with amplifiers. Maybe same thing with bass guitarists.../s.

 

[bucephylus]

I know people like Sunn, but I thought they were tube heads. I'm not too well informed about their models.

About the only times I hear people mention Acoustic heads is when talking about combos GC carries. I've never seen anyone mention the "Acoustic tone" the way they do something like a GK RB series head.

Well, the two main stadium amps of legend are the Acoustic 360 and the Ampeg SVT. Both can be used for a variety of basses; but, in terms of yin-yang, the 360 is sauce with J basses and the SVT is sauce with P basses.

Don’t know if you play J’s at all, but every player owes it to themselves to plug a J into an Acoustic 360 at least once in their time playing.

 

[dukeorock]

I know people like Sunn, but I thought they were tube heads. I'm not too well informed about their models.

About the only times I hear people mention Acoustic heads is when talking about combos GC carries. I've never seen anyone mention the "Acoustic tone" the way they do something like a GK RB series head.

I meant the old Acoustic amps. Jaco, John Paul Jones, etc

Sunn made some fantastic SS heads too!

 

[socialleper]

That was not the question you originally stated, and to which I responded. You made the statement that GK was the only SS head that players were “gaga” over. The actual fact is there are a number of the newer SS heads that have extremely loyal users, who are perfectly “gaga” over their tool of choice.

I suppose there is a gray area here for the intent of modeling.
I do indeed love my Mesa D800. It is light, powerful, and has a great eq. However, I wouldn't say there is anything unique enough about its tone that it would need to be modeled, unless we are talking about a digital plug in for a DAW, and only then for mere convenience.
I am loyal to the product in that it meets my needs. I think that is the corner stone of loyalty when it comes to SS heads 90% of the time. Tube heads are something you have to want the particular sound to want to deal with because they are a pain. That is an instance where modeling could come in useful, but as I said, in my experience, digital modeling of tube amps just isn't quite the same.

 

[SirMjac28]

It's a shame the Variax bass wasn't given a chance but bassists are far too traditional where guitarists will try anything.

 

[James Collins]

I think the Variax bass was doomed to failure because it isn't a Fender. If Fender made a similar bass, it would probably become the 3rd or 4th most sold bass. But companies and bass players have a desire to have basses sound different as much as possible. If Warwick made a single bass that sounded like a Thumb, Corvette, SSI, SSII, Dolphin, etc...how would I justify purchasing all of that beautiful lumber!